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RailsConf 2019 - Keynote: Ethical Issues in the Law and Tech... by Bari A Williams

Bärí Williams
Vice President, Legal, Policy & Business Affairs at All Turtles
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RailsConf 2019
May 2, 2019, Minneapolis, USA
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Bärí Williams
Vice President, Legal, Policy & Business Affairs at All Turtles

Bärí Williams is the vice president of legal, business, and policy affairs at All Turtles, a startup adviser in the tech industry, and a published author in the New York Times, Wired, Essence, Fortune, and Fast Company. She is the former head of business operations management for North America at StubHub, where she was responsible for managing and overseeing technical metrics, product innovation, partnerships, and P&L results across the company. She also serves as an adviser to startups in the enterprise and e-commerce space.Prior to StubHub, Williams was a senior commercial attorney at Facebook, supporting Internet.org connectivity efforts, the company’s supply chain, and the building of drones, satellites, and lasers. She also successfully took on the passion project of creating and implementing Facebook’s Supplier Diversity program, launched in October 2016.Williams is a graduate of the University of California, Berkeley (BA, mass communications); St. Mary’s College of California (MBA); the University of California, Los Angeles (MA, African American studies); and the University of California, Hastings College of Law (JD).

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RailsConf 2019 - Keynote: Ethical Issues in the Law and Tech with Production Ideation, Creation & Shipping by Bari A Williams


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Make a long story short. My daughter has allergies and she was sick yesterday. And so I was supposed to come yesterday and the flight I was initially on was delayed. So they moved me to another flag that one ended up being delayed in the middle of that. I somehow lost left my bag in one of the five Ubers. I took that day and apparently said Uber driver instead of calling me back when I went to request. Did he have my bag left it at a Safeway where he picked up his next passenger, so 1 * for that

but thankfully like an hour ago the Safeway called and said hey and he left his bag here and it's got your phone number at the fantastic. I will have my babysitter come get it. So all's well that ends well. But so who am I what am I doing here? Like why? Is there a random lawyer on stage at the Ruby on Rails conference and the answer is because the majority of my career has been trying to save engineers and coders from themselves. Not that you all need saving all the time, but sometimes it's just helping to refine

ideas understand where they meet there may be blind spots or there are things that you haven't necessarily thought of and I'll give you some examples of that along the way in the presentation. So what I want is for you all to be completely vocal and interactive. I am more of an interactive person. So talking at people is not typically my jam. I know most lawyers are not that way but that's also makes me a special unicorn. I'm a black woman. That's a lawyer that works on tag. That doesn't like to actually talk at people. So

what are we going to discuss today at the collisions in the law and Tech with product ideation creation and shipping issues. And the reason why I believe that this is important to give this message to you all but you are really on the front line and in the last two years we have seen where design and engineering and coding has led to conversion of democracy and all kinds of other fun mishaps Sorry, if anybody is actually did not believe that was the version of democracy. I have

beachfront property in Idaho to to sell you. But that that's really the truth is that you all are the front line of defense and I understand that there may be junior coders in here. There may be more senior and so it's hard to the to the dumbest PowerPoint about imposter syndrome. It's hard to raise your voice in a room particularly to be the dissenting voice and particularly to be the dissenting voice when you are either a woman or person of color or maybe even from a rule background. It's hard to raise your voice and say we'll have you thought about this or how

would a blind person use this or how are we marketing this if this is what we're going to create the we're going to touch on all of those things. So any good lawyer will tell you diction matters how you define? A word is is Paramount so diversity inclusion equity and parity these other kind of the four Buzz words that people all group together when they talk about diversity in Tech now show of hands how many people actually like the word diversity? Okay. I

personally don't know if I'm more of a an inclusion fan because I feel like it's easier to lead with inclusion because everyone has a story no matter who you are and where you're from about a time in which you were excluded from something and when you leave with diversity, I find and particularly if you're if you're In a room in which there is a particular majority their eyes glaze over and they checked out because they think it doesn't apply to them. So I don't want to make you feel like I'm picking on you. But but typically

their eyes glazed over and they're like, well, that's not my purview. I'm not a woman I may not be differently abled. I may not be lgbtq. This isn't something for me but it is very much about you because you were in rooms at a lot of those other marginalized folks are not in and so it is imperative that you can also think through some of these blind spots in issues and be an ally does anybody know how Equity got thrown into this mix if you do just raise your hand. Okay, so we're going to learn something today. So when you first is diversity,

I Define that personally as being counting it it's tis the season right now. It's spring and so tech companies roll out their diversity report where they tell you how many black people work there. How many women work there? How many differently-abled how many veterans? Throw it all in there, right? And that doesn't tell you anything about how those people's work is valued at that company. It just tells you what bus are in seats. So inclusion is really the bigger piece because that means that those folks have a seat at the table. They are helping to design and ideate

and to test things that we're going to be shipped and if we don't have that inclusive nature, the diversity doesn't doesn't matter at all. You might as well just cancel that out. Equity so that means are we actually being seen at the right levels? So when you're looking at diversity and inclusion the equity piece is also when you look at those diversity reports this year know how many people are in Senior Management? Typically, not a lot. So when you're talkin to typically about black and brown folks and and differently-abled folks as well. They are usually not

in leadership ranks. And that is a problem because that means that their voices are drowned out or not even invited to sit at the table when those products are being made and even more importantly when they're being tested. So that brings up an issue around principles and profit right? Everyone's all about like ship fast ship it now get it out get it done the issue with that is that you're often times missing things. I'll give you an example. So I I was an attorney at Facebook savior. Save your tire.

I'll take questions at the end you can you can file on then. But during the creation of some of those products particularly around live a couple of us did ask questions about. Okay. Well then the cool concept. We we like it. Do you have a kill switch because someone is going to disrobe on this thing. Someone is going to be caught in the commission of a crime. Someone made kill someone on this. Do you have a kill switch? And the answer was that. people self regulate behavior and

Okay. And then you have other issues when you eat you think of the self-serve platform right the ad platform with self-service so I could Target and there was a there's a HUD lawsuit that was filed at the beginning of April. That's a whole different issue with Ben Carson's going Facebook is weird, but And I mean forgive me for being a little skeptical of the idea that Ben Carson really wants to enforce civil rights for Toc and in Hood, but his issue was valid one the software platform

allows people to self select. Do I want to show this housing add to only white women between the ages of 25 and 40 and this particular Locale. So you're building what the customer says that they want, but you're also enabling them to break the law. So it's how are you thinking through those things if someone who Could have raised that issue was sitting there or even thought through will how what are the ways that you can use this tool for nefarious purposes. Those are the questions that are not being asked and those are the questions are not being raised. And

those are the things that lead to housing discrimination employment discrimination some version of democracy pick your favorite. data and privacy breaches fun facts about that about that HUD lawsuit. The only reason why the head lawsuit was filed is because Facebook would not allow the Department of Housing and Urban Development to have unfettered access to Facebook data. Now I will say that that to me is hopeful and optimistic that they would rather be sued by the government than to allow Ben Carson have unfettered access to your

profile. Cuz who knows what he would do with that. Probably not much. So what are the ethical issues in your thinking through I would say there's three large issues around this so one is going to be lack of diversity matter that exposure to bad product creation. So that's the idea around. Let's say something around like live or the ad platform. Another issue around live is if you can take payments via messenger, you can create a closed group. You can broadcast live solely to that group you have now essentially created a

webcam business on a free platform. Nobody seemed to think about that either that could also be used for child trafficking. It's things like that where you need to have people who have different lived experiences or may or may not be related to people who skirt the law and can give you actual example. These are the things that need to be discussed and talked about. Second piece. So if you're working on a matter and you realize that there is a huge blind spot and it has unintended despair impact. Do something like that could be seen and when you're

working on AI That's a huge huge issue particularly around facial recognition technology around voice and speech recognition because it doesn't understand certain slang terms colloquialisms. It invalidates languages people. And so if you do not have people who are diverse that can work on these products you're going to get something that isn't going to be as useful as it can be. third thing and this may not necessarily apply so much for this audience, but it is something to think about when you're sitting in meetings and you build something and you ask

Will. How are you guys going to publicize it or Market it? Terrible terrible example Twitter add I think back in October and it's stuck with me because it was just in such poor form. It was it was I believe it was a a Latin X family and he was buying the his mom lotto tickets, but they were it was done in a very very condescending way of essentially indicating that they're poor and so they need these lotto tickets to get out of poverty and I just when I saw it, I just thought to

myself who Signed off on this and other examples of things like this ancestry.com had an ad that was pulled a couple weeks ago to anybody see this ad is essentially like romanticizing slavery. Yeah, it was terrible, but eventually it took. The sort of the basis of the Sally hemings and Jefferson love story. I don't have a love story works when you're enslaved by your man. But essentially it was okay. Well Let's Escape we can escape and run north. And the first thing I thought was what is he is gaping from he can go freely. Like that's not even a question, but he's

encouraging his woman to go and then the last shot says will this story could have ended here, but but you're here so discover more like this is just so beyond tone deaf. Do you see things like that? You wonder who signed off on this who was in the room when this decision was made. Is there anybody that raise their hand and said perhaps we need a different Ad Agency for this or perhaps this shouldn't be an ad that we're actually going to use and sometimes I understand you can't do that because it's scary to raise your hand and raise your voice. Stop

other issues where you can see that the legal issues the ethical issues dovetailed diversity problems. So Cambridge analytica and voter suppression. I can respond that for hours. But especially you have you know, is someone taking data and using it that's not supposed to the third party on a platform to essentially suppress minority votes. You understand how people feel what they like what appeals to them and then you create targeted ads for those people

targeted for that Community to say. Oh, well, you know if you think Clinton and Trump are the same I'll just stay home. It'll be fine. Okay, here we are. The other piece with that is that you have people that are using information from a third-party platform and you're not been bothering to follow up and to audit every other third-party on the platform because of that one got through you can guarantee there's more than one. It's not going to be just Cambridge analytica. There are going to be others and a lot of it is we can't we can't really say anything about it at this

point because everyone that joined Facebook basically find a way their lives to play Candy Crush in 2009. And so do your information out there. Now Apple the other cognitive diversity versus representational diversity issue. Does anybody know what does every know what cognitive diversity is? No? Okay. So cognitive diversity is the idea that as long as I have different beliefs than you that I'm diverse. So and the example that the former former diversity officer at Apple

gave that you can have 12 white men in a room and and that's a diverse. And I kind of got literally did this like scratch my head and said it was okay. Well. Because one could be Norwegian one could be from Iowa one could be Republican one could be independent. So yeah, technically you could have diversity if you're looking at it through that lens of do they think differently but what I feel is a false narrative around the argument is what the tech industry is trying to solve for is representational diversity. If not necessarily trying to fall for, to the

other false premise embedded in that is it representational diversity often yields the cognitive diversity that you're speaking about. So you can't buy for Kasem. You can't have one without the other there conjoined. but yeah, so that was she now works elsewhere. the first step act so How many people and maybe I'm just the only like legal nerd who really really got into this last year, but how many people actually watched the Congressional hearings with Mark Zuckerberg the Google CEO Jack

Cheryl, did anybody watch any of those last year? Okay. So does anybody remember the exchange between the Google CEO and Representative Steve King? Who asked him why his iPhone didn't work? right, so you literally holds up an iPhone and says, you know, I just want to understand why this doesn't work and he's like, I don't Braun got out of work there. But this is a this is a very dangerous issue of where you see policy legal ethical issues product creation dovetail because everyone agrees to a certain extent that there needs to be some regulation. There's no agreement on what that

regulation should look like and there's definitely fear of the idea of someone who is talking and questioning of Google CEO in a congressional hearing asking about his iPhone which is made by a completely different company. That isn't who you want regulating your technology. But that's absolutely not what you want. And one of my favourite exchanges was during Mark testimony last April and Senator Orrin Hatch asked him how they make money. And he's and you can see like the he was trying to stifle after needs to Senator we sell ads. And you are

so that's that's how you make all that money. These are not the people you want regulating your technology. It's like trying to explain the internet to your grandfather. Which is kind of what he was doing. So the issue around that also leads to anytime you have a legal issue particularly if it dovetails with politics as in anything to do with no trolls and Bots Farms that we saw on Twitter spreading disinformation campaigns and Hillary Clinton runs this like trafficking ring out of the pizza shop whole thing.

You're going to have liability exposure at least based off PR. And so the easiest thing to do is to always think about how will this impact my business and how is it going to make us look I think oftentimes the focus is so much on speed of shipping and getting the product out that people ignore defects and their thinking is okay. We'll just get it out now see how it works. If if no one notices this or uses it for nefarious purposes is fine. It actually is a fine because somebody will find a way to exploit the tool they always do. And all that

leads to is your company being dragged on Twitter and you essentially you're going to get sued. So what can coders engineers and designers do to push for ethical solutions to these problems? lots of plants so one I always say advocacy starts from the inside. There's only so much external pressure will work. Yes, it does work and it works very well as we seen but what you don't want is to have your company put in a position where their face without external pressure. The easiest thing to do in the first

course of action should be to push from the inside to say. Hey, this is what's happening. This is how I see that this tool could be exploited or used for bad Reasons by bad people. Do we have any stopgap measures in order to fix this and if the answer is no we don't then you need to go back and create one or if the answer is as I've heard other client say I want nobody would do that. Okay. And I always try to be at the way I'm talking to you now as a way that I talk to my client.

I am very direct. I'm going to give you the real 100% every time and my thing is I am a black woman from Oakland, California from East Oakland. I can tell you probably 18 different ways. Somebody could manipulate a tool and use it for bad purposes and I'm a lawyer. So I'm not even a criminal. If anything I'm reverse hacking and telling you will defy word criminal. This is what I would do. And so those are the things that you need to think about it and I always try to be the person that raises my

hand and says things to the the prior speakers point that does come with some risk. It's like nobody wants to see the person who is going to tell you that have you thought about this or maybe this is wrong. Nobody wants to see that person coming but that person is actually going to save you in the end if you listen to them. So the issue around that is also that in order for you to keep and retain business. You have to walk the walk. You can't just put out the nice colorful brochure than you have like, you know, a woman and a person of color and then like a

differently-abled person inside look at our company is fantastic and it might be but how often are those people in the room when decisions are made in hard questions are asked and if they do ask the hard questions, how often do people listen and then not only how much do they listen? How do they implement? Ideas are fantastic execution is better and I think everybody in here understand that because that's your job. Sol Solutions Be proactive about bringing all the voices to the table. One thing that I am perfect example of this.

I was sitting in so I work for. My founder would hate me for calling it in an incubator. He hates the word incubator. So I will say we nurture companies. All turtles we nurture AI companies and we had a fantastic demo of an of one of the company's new product and it was it was great. I loved it and everyone went around the table and talked about how fantastic it was and I said, yeah just fantastic. How does a blind person use this because I had you have to look at the interface and if

I'm blind I can't see it. And everyone kind of got quiet and like we hadn't thought about that. Now perfectly normal that someone wouldn't have thought about that because when we're sitting in that room, there was no one who was differently-abled in that room, but I think it is important that you don't have to be in and out of a particular Community to ask questions that are relevant to those communities and often times. That's where it comes in where I don't want you guys to your eyes glaze over when you hear the word diversity because

often times you were in rooms that other people are not in and it's not to say that we collectively shouldn't be in those rooms, but for whatever reason we're not invited and so it is the duty of the person who's in the room to ask those hard questions for the people that aren't in there. I like it it almost to when I graduated from college, we had a speaker and I believe it. I think it was Michael Eric Dyson, and he implored us to be Trojan horses and that you are essentially sneaking in all those people who are not allowed into those rooms because you have this level of

education and access and they don't so it's your job to continue to speak for them. So that is my charge to you. Deliberately, ask yourself how you can been Ally B. That be the Trojan Horse. How can you stand up and show up for someone today someone other than yourself? Ask the hard questions. Bless you. And when you're looking at solving a problem ask yourself of this answers solution would work for women differently abled people of color poor people. There is a fantastic series at the New York Times is doing on privacy and if you haven't looked at it, it is fantastic

and there is an entire article about what it means to be poor in the digital economy. And it's very interesting and I will say I caught my own blind spot with that. I hadn't thought about that and what I'd the only way that I thought about it and to a certain extent was around the use of AI technology when you're dealing with poor communities are policed more. So predictive policing is used in their neighborhoods. That's based on historical data. I could rip on that for a completely different hour, but you all have time for that cuz I'm think I'm the last thing standing between

you and drinks. In my own drink if I want to celebrate my bag being found. But it's it is fascinating to think about how these things are used and can actually manipulate marginalized communities including women including differently-abled. Determines your credit-worthiness also based on historical data. All of those things are key things that people should think about so if you haven't read that I would suggest that you go at least Cedar at about 20 articles and their privacy profile and super super fascinating

the the article about the the poor in the digital economy. Those really really good. and so forth point if you haven't attended solution or you have a fixed or product and you're not really sure what those negative consequences could be like, you know webcam setup on your platform. If you are unsure refer back to number one and be proactive about bringing all those voices to the table to have them ask the question even better. If you have the employee base and which to do so beta tester products with people

from different backgrounds within your own company to see if they can hack something or come up with some reason why something may or may not work. And now I will open it up to you. So I always loved questions. I always loved things to be interactive and I feel like if people have questions want to ask something. That's also how you get more out of it. And I promise this is a safe space. I will not judge any of your questions. I will come any and all questions.

She got a mic for you. One of your first lies is about diversity vs. Inclusion and Inclusion is definitely the goal but doesn't diversity come have to come before that like in here. If you don't have the diversity then how can you have the inclusion Inc? I think they have a symbiotic relationship to be honest. I feel like you can Garner more diversity in your company. If you first demonstrate that you're inclusive, and I know that that sounds backwards to a certain extent but it's if

you are making sure that you are hiring. So we had a we have a phrase that we use words called find keep grow and you can interchange keeping growing and switch them because you can find the talent, but if you don't grow them, you won't keep them and you can find them and if you don't keep them, you won't grow them. So it works both ways, but I always feel like inclusion is such a easy lead because everyone has a story about being excluded from something whether that you're still really upset about not being picked first kickball in third grade. Or could be something

where you felt like you were really really qualify for a job when you didn't get it. Everyone has a story where they did not feel that they were just lead served. And so I feel like inclusion is a much easier way to discuss this topic versus starting with diversity because if someone automatically finds or thinks that they are not diverse they remove themselves from the conversation and they're not going to participate and that's what you don't want you want more voices at the table. And so every voice should be included not just the diverse people. Hey, so if you can see, I'm a white

male until your points about university, University versus actual diversity. I really want to understand and so is like a trojan horse. You know, I may find myself in those rooms. Right and I want to represent you no more more diverse, you know thinking how do I know that I'm saying the right thing for like, where do I get those ideas? Because I am I'm a white man. Don't discount your experience though. You know what? I mean? Like you've interacted with people from different different backgrounds your entire life and that probably has inform some of your thinking and some of the

view that you hold and it's very easy to just I wouldn't I wouldn't caution caution you to not necessarily think about all of my saying the right thing and I totally get that because you're worried that you're going to use maybe the wrong acronym for the wrong name or the wrong descriptor and I wouldn't worry so much about that so much as what's the message that you're delivering and I think that as long as you are in the room and you're choosing to be an a-line, you're asking questions that maybe someone else would ask if they have been invited to the table. That's the right way to to

think about it and to go or another alternative to be a will. We don't have stolen. So in this meeting, maybe we should bring them in next time I ask that's an even better way to show up and being a liar. You don't have to necessarily speak for the person bring the person to the park. I've got another question about being in the room. Do you have advice for what to do when you're in the room you speak up and the answer isn't? Oh we didn't think of that but that's not important. Welcome to version of

democracy. Yeah, I mean. Try to think of a good analogy to give you for that. So when I was at Facebook, I am an attorney. So but I built the Supplier Diversity Program and the reason being is and I was something I did for two years by myself on the side. And the reason why there was a passion project because The employee numbers were abysmal and if you are not actively engaging a Workforce will then you can use consultants. In other people outside of his business. I can give you that perspective. And if you're paying then you're the listen to that you

didn't realize all yours is a regular employee like girl go back into this contract versus you're paying $100,000 to these Consultants. You're going to listen to what their advice is. So that's one thing a second thing I would say is that and how I made the argument to even create that was by telling them how much money they stand to lose if they are not proactive about incorporating more diversity into their business the other piece to that is gentrification, right? Your Facebook is now what like a 2-mile long.

Thing that's eating Menlo Park in East Palo Alto and you can't hire everyone who wants to work there and not everybody wants to work for someone else. But what you can do is provide Economic Opportunity via allowing Consulting businesses janitorial service, whatever it may be so that people can stay in their communities and it's making the the financial argument to say. Okay. Well, if you don't do this have you thought about how much this will cost us and bad PR if there any legal ramifications in terms of if we're going to be sued and have you thought about this from the standpoint if you

do will you lose customers? That's always you always leave with the financial argument people per cup. If you tell someone how much money they stand to gain or lose their listening. Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for what you're talking about. But I was wondering as a woman of color. Like what is your advice to other women of color of their folks from unrepresented backgrounds when it's just seems like like someone's asking for advice like a how can I be a better Ally and sometimes like I don't really know what would be like your top three

things, you know, just interpersonal not necessarily related to work that you would give to his folks who want to be better Alice how you can be a better allies one have hard conversations one-on-one with people that you trust because that also will inform you in terms of what are the issues that they're thinking about personally and also within their communities. The second point is Grey's those issues if that person is not in the room when you're in a meeting the better thing to do is to bring that person to the meeting. That's one thing that I do, you know,

people have talked a lot about mentors. Porsche pan, that's great. But a sponsor is what's going to actually Propel you forward a bit horse is fantastic. You can talk to your Mentor they can give you advice but if you have a sponsor particularly inside of your company or inside of a company in which you're going to that is what's going to get you in those rooms that's going to get you the promo that was going to get you the work that gets you seen. So if you want to be in a good Ally also be a sponsor and don't just you know, I remember I heard it

with a VC and one of the things he was saying and I don't believe that he meet up with malicious about it is just conversation is I love to Mentor people who remind me of myself. Okay. Well, I'm automatically exit out of that cuz you know, it was like a five foot seven. Why do that? That's not me at all. And so it's if everyone takes the mindset of I only want to help people that look like me, you're just perpetuating and exacerbating assistant that's already in place. The greater thing to do is to take someone who is not like you at all and how can you

help mold and shape their career and help them be better and also learn in the process from that person. I always believe that it's an equal exchange. It isn't just I'm taking from you and you're giving to me it's an even exchange if you're doing it correctly. So I would say make sure that you're having individual conversations with people that you trust so that they can understand your perspective and you can understand there's Actively include people in meetings. If you don't if you cannot include them in the meeting voice their opinions and speak up for them and be a sponsor be an

active sponsor. Do you think unionization of tech workers can help with these issues you think unionization of tech workers can help with these issues? Sorry, I was like I feel like my mom has like standing behind me think picture face picture face. She probably is ears are probably burning the hard part. Are are doing that to a certain extent like I think black is a good example of someone who is doing it, but I was in the majority don't and that's that's what's really hard. I think you know, the big part of it too is is its culture is company culture is if the focus is going to be on

shipping fast. Everyone is focused on just like getting their work done and getting it done quickly and going home and going about their regular life. Like people are not setting aside the time to go and have those conversations with colleagues to understand those points and I think It doesn't have to be super personal but to embed a bit more of of personal interaction and something to work actually help you collaborate better you help you make better products and it could be a better a better case for that utilization. Hi, I

have a question about sort of this inherent quality to certain types of technologies that actually exclude people may be almost inadvertently. I'm thinking about things like face ID on the iPhone that may not work equally across all Races and cultures or yo VR headsets where there should have been assumed interpupillary distance, but they have to kind of it here the VR mask to and other Technologies where the person create new technology may not necessarily. Be racist or a bad person but they are participating in a

technology that they know is going to not perform as well for people with what I don't I don't know what my question is other than what are your thoughts are on that and if you are even like a smaller company that doesn't know if they have the resources and you can create something for 80 or 85% of your customers knowing that you might be inventing a technology that's actually going to be excluding people. Is that unethical is it morally wrong to even created at all? So here's the thing. I don't want to attribute blame for something like that because

oftentimes of unintentional right like they're not say who I'm going to make this technology just for like straight able-bodied white dudes and like no one else. I don't think that's how people intentionally go into something but I think that like everyone else we create things based off of our lives and how we see the world. And so if that's how you move about the world, that's what you're going to build and it isn't it isn't nefarious. But that's where I come back to have you beta-tested this with other people of different communities and colors and if you haven't

then you should and to your point my favorite example of that is TSA. You can see my skeleton, but you can't see through my hair. Like literally the weirdest thing is that having to go through security and like my hair goes off. Why? Is hair it's a trust me. There's nothing in there except hair product and it happens every time I wash my hair when my hair is dry for whatever reason it doesn't but when it's wet, it goes off every single time and every black

woman I know has the same story and that's because clearly someone who built this technology was not thinking about black women with natural hair which you know is Make sense if that's the lens through which they view the world, but the problem is I keep getting random searches because somebody didn't think outside of the box that other people are going to be going through security and flying. So it's it's making sure that you have people beta testing your products and at the table to ask these questions before you ship something.

I thank you for the sock. This is a great topic and I'm glad that you're discussing this. My question is are we creating a self-fulfilling prophecy? We have created a culture in which we have the most privileged people working in space with the most power and we're doing it in the place with the most expensive cost of living ever created that will exclude people just because of the amount of privilege. It's required to enter into the space. You need to be able to afford

to be in the space. You need to afford to have the connections in the space and much of the starts at Elite colleges or with Elite levels of Education that are not available Slots of people. We have started to make some ground in lower level entry position through boot camps and things but this can be seen through higher. Apple openings in in companies not being filled by people who do not have the privilege that that is required to reach that rank. I believe that we need to move out of this model of being stuck in Silicon Valley and move

the equity capital and Bonnie out of Silicon Valley in order to create products that actually represent a group of people beyond the people that can have the privilege to be there. I refuse to believe the premise that the most creative smartest Innovative people live in one tiny region in one state and one country in an entire world like this. Just not the truth Talent is equally dispersed the access the opportunities are not that's the different. So to your point when I tell people that you do want to look for

other candidates like you had my grandmother had the saying words like to get something you haven't got you have to do something you haven't done so you cannot continuously look at Stanford and Berkeley I went to Berkeley but still you can go to Stanford and Berkeley and MIT and Harvard and think that you're going to have like this huge wide diverse pool weather. That's socioeconomic or racial or gender based you just it's just not going to happen and I feel like I tell people this all the time but North Find an AT&T is an HBCU. They graduate thousands of Engineers every

year and nobody is actively going to the school to recruit but there's a wide population of black Engineers. Just there's a whole nesby National Society of black Engineers. There is also one for Latin X. These are very easy resources, but I often find the people don't utilize resources one because they don't know that they exist or two. They don't think that they're useful I tend to believe this is more of the former versus the ladder is it people don't know that these organizations in me schools exist, but that's also because they keep going to like the

same 10 places. So you're going to have to widen your pool in order to do that. The other piece is looking at candidates holistically. So sometimes a candidate may not have that exact on point experience that you want and side no job descriptions are often written very very poor. and in a discriminatory manner and was interesting about that is a Harvard Business Review study where 50 men could have 55% and qualifications on a job description. They're like crushed it. I'm getting this job. I'm applying a women wait until they're closer to 90% And can

check each each box. And if you can't check the last box you find an analogous argument my case for that is that we should be looking at people holistically and it's they have analogous experience somewhere else and they show that there a quick study. Why would you not want to give them a chance? So do your point of the very very good one also was way too expensive to live in the Bay. Last one. Okay, the previous question about labor unions in technology in in soccer development

for Union since our first element of I was wondering what your thoughts are on activities like the Google walkout in the revolt against project Maven up to and including labor unions in software development have to address these concerns across the entire industry. Yeah. I think I think that's interesting like you see a lot now lot of employee activism you had Microsoft employees Amazon employees Oaks signing petitions and walking out because they didn't want their facial recognition technology used by the Department of Defense. Yeah, I get it hard working at these companies that

you maybe building things that you don't necessarily like and at it. Impersonal moral dilemma in terms of how fulfilled and satisfied are you working for a company or working on a product in building something that you don't like the end result. I think that that goes back to being internal Advocates that if you have this employee activism that often times will get more done my concern particularly from a legal standpoint is retaliation and we've seen some of that kind of bubble up with you know, but I think the two women who initially led the led the Google

walkout are there claiming that they're being retaliated against I don't know how true that may or may not be but I also would not doubt that that what happens in retaliation looks different in a HR and legal perspective because all that means now is like I'm I'm scrutinizing your work with a much greater. I to what you're doing. Your performance review is going to be really really strict but I can't you can't point to that and definitively say that's what Location so that's the hard part. Thank you guys are great.

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