Course  Startup School 2019
July 22, 2019, Mountain View, CA., USA
Course Startup School 2019
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Anu Hariharan and Adora Cheung - How Investors Measure Startups Q&A
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About speakers

Anu Hariharan
Continuity Partner at Y Combinator
Adora Cheung
Partner at Y Combinator

I am a Partner at Y Combinator's Continuity Fund focused on growth stage investments. More recently at YC Continuity, I led investments in Boom, Instacart, Convoy, Brex, Gusto and Faire. I am also personally passionate about global technology investing and the convergence of great entrepreneurs between US, China and India and have invested in a personal capacity in a few companies including Jinri Toutiao. Previously, I was an investment partner at Andreessen Horowitz, where I focused on consumer internet growth investments, and worked actively with the management teams of a number of portfolio companies including Airbnb, Instacart, Medium, OfferUp and Udacity. Prior to Andreessen Horowitz, I was a Principal at The Boston Consulting Group's Private Equity practice in NYC where I led multiple growth equity due diligences in the consumer and fintech sector. I started my career as a senior engineer at Qualcomm and hold a MS in Electrical Engineering from Virginia Tech and MBA from The Wharton School

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Adora Cheung was co-founder and CEO of Homejoy, which was funded by Y Combinator in 2010. Before that, she ran product at Slide. She has a bachelor's in computer science from Clemson University and is an economics PhD dropout at the University of Rochester.

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About the talk

Topic: Business

YC Partners Anu Hariharan and Adora Cheung answer questions from Startup School founders on how investors measure startups.


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We're going to do a new thing here. See if it works essentially the topic of this Q&A is how do investors measure startups or something like that. And so what I did was I posted I don't know if you saw that I posted in the Forum and ask for a bunch of questions or hundreds of them. And so I'm going to take the ones that were uploaded a lot and then go from there. So most of this is going to be me asking new questions since I knew has been invested for a long time sheet answer questions to but I just can't start at 2.

The big are you kind of went over this earlier? But the big areas in which an investor evaluates a startup is team metrics what you went over just recently in the in the lecture unique insight and how big opportunities are there any other areas in which figure is in which you evaluate yet? No, I think especially at this stage you are and then probably for a while even you'll see is a b it all comes down to only three things team product-market fit Market opportunity. That's it. And so the stage. And it's really is probably the heaviest weight is the team and so when it comes to the team,

it's more about why are you working in this idea? Right and what do you make inside? Do you have your Clarity of thought on how you plan to, you know, see this as a big opportunity and how good are you at convincing that like, that's any investor gives you a capital. Do you know what to do with it? Right? So that's that's pretty much it. So in terms of team What if I don't have experience in the thing that I'm building like how are investors going to believe that I'm a legitimate person to work on this matter to be honest. I think pretty much if y'all Kazuma BWI Enterprise.

It doesn't we're probably industrial domain experience helps a little bit is really Healthcare and bio, I think in fintech Terrace light bias, maybe because building a fintech product requires some domain knowledge or at least interest and curiosity because there's a lot of regulatory and compliance but largely Nails, which is why I said your Clarity of thought during your pitch to investors is what matters how much you thought about it and how well are you able to articulate all the nitty-gritty details of your business, you know is is what matters and more

importantly than. You should always assume you are teaching the investor about this face in the company don't assume they know it. They measured by how well you're teaching them. So that's really the matter fast. So how do they know you're moving fast? Well, this is advise me to we say that we have to go really fast. Well, if you have if you've said that I plan to work on this idea. I've been thinking about it for the last 12 months and I plan to you know, I have someone

and lunch product in the next tournament. That's clearly moving slow. Right? So it's how they move out that measuring whether you move fastest house crappy. You are having on Stihl MVP. How many iterations are you doing? How are things moving in the paced? Like I'm at this point. It should go really fast in a week by week basis. Yes, if you're working on something people want there's a lot of latent demand and so you should be able to find users easily. In fact if you don't know your first I thought we did a lot. But if you don't know your first 10 10 user 1050 users, it's potentially

there's no founding Market fit there. If you don't know or even find them and one of the things really to this one with things going to watch the application, if you a lot of people apply more than once and get in and one of the things we do look at is there's a questions like something along the lines of what progress have you made since the last application and we read that actually like one that's one first thing to read is what are the earnings even if you don't have that many users yet it still what are the earnings you you made? Okay remotes. Do you discount remote teams or how do

you evaluate local verses regarding? Well, I think this really varies depending on who you ask but I think one thing is clear which is remote is increasingly taking off and so it would be at a time as for anyone to say. Oh, I'll be only focus on local and no longer remote, right? I think she was like slacks to him have really made it incredible for more than more things to fo Let me look at get live on a fly sees companies completely remote zapier another amazing company complete remote so we don't make any differences but it really comes down to the investors

selection. I think it's even providing SSN Point. There's no ding on whether it's remote a local. It's more that they're spending their time. I have better get here around four size. Don't do things to satisfy investment build a company you want to build a great company with lots of users from vetiver than the source are they will come. All right. So this question is that investors are investing in team not product, which we have said, how does a solar founder fact into this? Like what is like the team is one person. So how do you evaluate that that one person that's talking

to the investor and eBay be don't recommend that all sounds that attending all investor meetings because obviously it's a lot of time, you know that goes on doing investor meetings with as you have your work to do so It's really comes down to the Sea use Clarity of thought you know, and how well they are able to impress upon and mustard by the way. This is not just to impress investors. The reason why this Clarity of thought I'd to keep things up if you don't have that, how are you going to hire your first 10 people if you can convince your first 10 people that you're willing something big

and they should join you in your mission, then it's really hard to come and see me, right and that's why investors are looking for that storytelling ability. So solo founder doesn't matter. It's the CEO's job. Does he really needs to be good at it and they should learn and they should learn to be good at it. Do you have any advice on how to know the clarity of like the clarity floppies? Like, how are you doing? Well on that yet. So this is probably really high bad example, but I'll say that which is the brexit anders and we can petrol it was the second time. They were building a company

says they knew that they needed to do this. I don't know if they did this in their first time probably not. But when they are going through by see they actually literally iterated from a VR startup idea to Rex right which is corporate credit cards and they had built fintech in the past. But the both of them knew the stakes are high at least for them because they're dropping out of Stanford. They literally came out of Brazil to attend Stanford. They were dropping out of the university and so they both wanted to make sure that Flex had a big opportunity and before hiding a single

person they wrote down very clearly what brexit could be with all the products that they could build in the roadmap tested it but not like he was not a huge Subway, but they just wrote it down to really understand build a financial model and peek at the end of the accounting class and Stanford because he had no idea how to build it and he built a whole part of your by your tested the exemptions of market demand. And what connection do you need to head for it to be at least a billion dollar company and only off day after they both got comfortable that that is apart. And this is what

couldn't stand for in putting our entire life probably for the next 10-15 years on this. They hired the first employee is an amazing Clarity of thought right? You are not saying everybody should be that nice. What is if you rent to convince someone to join you to end any more often than not of this date whoever you want doesn't want to join you. So what is that company story about International Center? So you've personally invested tons of money and international startups. How did those Founders convince you to put that money into their company when you're not from their Columbia at UK

all the other places, you know, I know I feel like I'm repeating myself, but it comes to those two things and I think the internet once we did with probably a little later stage do so given we didn't have presence in the region and we didn't know what was really market demand. We waited for some more progress, right? So you see that in metric You see that in there thinking you see that in a more fleshed-out process, but even there if it's hard to hide in San Francisco think about how hard it is to have their like there are no execs available with skill experience. So don't

see yours actually have to work 10 times harder to have the clarity of thought and to convince someone from the US to move there. Any suggestions of how to convince someone stop doing really really well and if you do really well for example and let them wrap he basically convinced a few exactly actually been a phenomenal job of attracting execs from the u.s. Is you have you know, the exact felt they had it's the first time in their life. They have an opportunity to make an impact in lockdown like the way they never did and you can do that to a startup. It's really hard to do in any of the

setting and so they've been able to convince exact with laptop connection obviously, but having living in the US and UK for many years to move back and Lead teams for the purpose of applying to YC, we take Founders from everywhere and like a new said it's more about more. Team and idea then metrics are or where you're from and stuff like that. So is bootstrapping as a sole founder an instant know when your mind Do you have advice for sale Founders? So 10% or batch from last batch? We're still the founders. We definitely accept silicone hoses at y c in terms of what you guys do. Like is

that that I don't think that's a great but I would say this having you know, obviously observe a lot of IC Founders, even the ones that scale. It's such a hard journey and there are so many things that I going to go around that having another co-founder generally have seen has helped a lot more because this someone who can give a lot more contacts than everyone depending on the see you but if you don't have that, that's fine. But then by the be there looking for some senior execs at least one or two who had an incredible that you can lean on for some portion of your business because if

it's still all you the main challenge of the BBC is the CEOs not scaling and so get a solar farm. Just because it's harder if you don't scale It's always good another good solar Founders build a community around them of people to help them go through some tough times. Should I find are you so maybe this is more fundamental question of how do I what are the indicators that I should see before? I take on a Bessemer even go start fundraise, you know most companies tend to fundraise. So but we always refer to PG's post here because I love that post with his try to be default alive and try

to raise as much money as possible as little money as possible to react little money as possible. So you remain focused. I think it is too but important and it's lost, you know and many people but if you look at the real even successful companies, everyone is dumb mistakes, but they'll all say the most painful time of their company's life even later on was when they you know that you may have more money in the bank and you end up hiding more and then you actually dealing with a lot less. So it's not that your problems magically go over your problems become tenfold because your people

brought them a lot more people problems at this stage of a little money as possible and focus now that is a question as to whether I should be raised or not. Right very few companies don't raise but that beautiful example never raised after I see them and I think because the business is so good. It's going really well. So they already but the positive they have very healthy margins and you know, Austin Wade would tell me this like, I don't know what to do with my money in the bank. Why would I use more that's a great reason not to race right? But you are not in that luxurious

situation then you know, that is something to be said about I need Capital to grow not necessary. If I paid marketing don't please don't take this as paid marketing is another, but more like I need to hire more Engineers. I need a ride ahead of time to build a things that I need to cuz I know I have a business model at the end of it. So therefore the way to think of fundraisers If You Think You Are You you have a clear path to the next Milestone and you may need like, you know, maybe 200-500 on $1000000 than just race that minimum amount but come up with that plan. Very clearly. What is the

money you need to hit that makes my next Milestone and just write that money because guess what your. You should matters. As perfect answer have a plan basically. Okay. So the next set of questions are a lot of questions on basically, how do I fundraise without user Revenue which is like a silly veiled way of saying, how do I trick investors? I think into funding me when I don't know if I'm doing something I want but I will ask these questions. How are pre-launch startups measure specifically those that are low commission require a high user volume again, this comes down to

the phone. But I honestly would say if you really think that is a big company to be both like why haven't you launch them? I haven't do something fraction before you go right speakers. You can easily especially today you can raise a few hundred thousand dollars even from friends and family and laundry company. So you should do that don't like, you know, don't guard pitching to investors Anthem Grand idea that you don't have a plan it is Possible these days but I don't recommend it. I think if you have fond of credibility, which is going to 2nd and found her. I'm fonder it is easier to

do those things without launching. But you remember the the less traction you have and the left date. Are you sure the smaller cab the smaller evaluation the larger your delusion? So make sure that you really know that you want to build a company that is worth it and you believe that until raise accordingly because money will be there. If you execute write any fuel you also see that you you have enough use a traction and that is something to be billed. So I would say try to test it out. There are many ways to test it out these days and low cost effective

ways to do that first before you know, what is the best way to show some traction when looking for investment without launching so Bike email list user all these users must wait list stuff like that. There are you know, this is the YC advice and given the bachelor which is if you don't have money in the bank you haven't raised so you don't have users on email as you don't have users. All right that there are some like obviously we keep telling you guys users in revenue or if that's your primary metric Revenue being like 99% of you should just use Revenue that way

you get cash in the bank and that's your best type of investment. There are leading indicators to getting to revenue but the end of the day it's like that's the only that's really the only way all right, how do investors you non-biting indications of Interest / support in evaluating traction of the B2B company. So I'm guessing like Nom Nom by Daniela wise or letters of support for Grant applications stuff like that. But do those even matter not much if you have traction and you have certain Loi spending then fine, then they would call those otherwise and ask what's the probability of

converting a better the stage you're in if you go in saying I have to otherwise it means know it doesn't mean much. And then how does an investor judge a heavy MVP that is someone with basically long sales cycle Health IT company takes 46 months like you need maybe you need to raise money before you get your first contract. How do you show progress yet? This is very true Freeman Enterprise infrastructure, which is why I made the point that you may have only one or two customers at the end of 24 months. That's okay. Most of these companies try to do pilots. So I usually tell you no talk with

a pilot because the company is elsevier to be hesitant to sign a you know, 500k 1 million dollar contract with the startup so stocked with like a 4 week 6 week pilot show progress to that investors like to see that they'll talk to that one or two customers. So if you are in the business of selling large contracts like greater than 500k is he, you know, you can plan to Exhale only like two to three customers in the first 12 to 24 months because a lot of your time is going to go into making sure that it's really Successful by that one or two customers. That's not necessarily customer growth.

It's more that one customer and how you're facing with them. All right. So the last total questions is on interacting with investors. All right. So how do you avoid investors when they say it's too early for us? What is the best way to handle this? How do you avoid getting responses like that? It is one of the most, that yeah. I don't think you can I think you know, I would I would take the note and not read into the know and keep moving. Yeah, I got here. The no move on. Is it sensible to start engaging with

potential investors prior to finding product Market fit or should you just wait until you have real traction Financial? Yeah. I dissed age. I would say focus on building the product focus on getting your first hundred users and then you know meet with angels we agree. How do you find the perfect investors? So this person started with 30,000 on AngelList in removed all the removed a bunch of a bunch of filters and then has like a thousand left. How do they pick from 1000 investors? I wish we had a answer for that or like a I think it's basically you contact all of them. I mean

it's like it's basically the same thing as a field game you have leads you have conversion. You have to follow up yet to send personal messages. I was just use whatever spreadsheets you're using for yourselves game for this and just go for Yeah, I would try to avoid the investors that you don't have confidence in all about the founders of reference. But if that's that's the only one of them, but otherwise you have to do exactly like what I mentioned like go through it like a sales pipeline. Who is imperfect what are the best approaches for minority female Founders to gain visibility with

NPC's? I think the industry's changing a lot. So therefore it should be easier than it was before I always had problems with the warm intro because most ways he said you need a woman to and I'm like, okay as a female founder you probably know less than 1% of the people who know the Reese's because they're all males and it's really hard to get a woman's right. I think that it's changing a lot or alot of you know, Festival almost bz Farms are pointing finger Massachusetts easy to get this looks like all raised that way to help him if I'm going to get in front of me these but this is vice I

give the rest back to us whether you're from a minority 2% of group or not. The best repherrals is through existing portfolio Founders. This is no compensation for that. So if you can find an existing portfolio founder of that firm, and they he or she is you know, Who's you quite well and is willing to die for you. That's the best route from Founders. Who should I meet with and that's like one of their primary Journal K2 more questions one will actually one more question which was like a comment on how do investors come up with evaluations.

You know, when I first started NBC Ashley before I go I see I thought there was a lot of science to it, but it's actually art it's not science. So the truth is I'm do you write about CDC or so there is no science to it. So it literally comes down to what the stage you're at. And what ownership does WC want. So this is why if you have no traction someone let's say I want 30% of your company, right? It's not very common in the US that's very common internationally. And so you end up raising one. 31 /

0.3. The toy that's your valuation. And so that I would say if you're in the US at seated could vary anywhere from 10 to 15% depending on the proxxon cdjs 25% ownership. So if you're raising 10 million 10 / 0.25 evaluation if your city's be 10% ownership so few days in 30 million 30 / 2.10 population. So that's why it's art has no science to it sounds really kicks in after the sea because your growth stage and you have a lot more numbers Plus at that point the girl that left his really evaluating you as to what when can you go public and what would be the

valuation if you go public and so the evaluation from the cdc's. Calculated based on that like two things by Lucian to Target and find a man. So if you're a hot company you can say I'm only going to sell 10% So here's my valuation or if you're not then exactly that investors. Yes. Calculate that for you. All right, so that's it three questions. You're on vacation. Of course, look at Lambda school. And otherwise, he fought for the company of our side think it's important that I think historically

investors probably struggled with medication startups because they founded Duff descale, right? And if you don't scale that is a Kappa twitch, it stops or plateaus and I think with new tools like slack and zoom especially when does school has been able to scale relieve out and also the new are adding a text out of the mall outcome-focused. So I do expect a lot more startups in a deck. So where to find the best like how much vacuum should you have for the weekend?

Yeah, so the question is how much revenue or usage should I have before I go reach out to him and to investors so I'm not sure that I think it's basically a cold front in the company is not to go get an investor writes about to just the whole premise of the question is the problem that I have right is is like what do I have to do to get this guy to like me right in the whole thing is like you're going to an investor cuz you're like man. I need some I figured something out and I need some money to make this grow out faster. I'm a little

impatient or am I God I figure out a bunch of stuff and I just had this stuff. I would be able to make his whole lot bigger a whole lot faster and I'm willing to give up Equity to do it right so sometimes you can be like, hey, look, I know more money would help me grow faster, but I'm not willing to give up that could be reason not to fundraise was legitimate, but it is not. What is my target whole question is do you have something working? So well and you figured out something that like, oh shit and vegetable Glycol I get on top of the snow from investors point of view.

Does this founder or this company know what to do with the money. I'm going to give give them I don't mean like it when things are going to spend the money on. I'm always thinking about things in terms of like my money being multiplied just as like me as the general investor and so I'm trying to just figure out so I can I put this into this machine this Little Star machine and then what is it going to be turned into it? What am I going to buy Roi and that's the way your picture sort of go. So it says like, oh, you know what I figured out this plan if I raise a million dollars that will get

me to this target. It's going to get me to an additional that will get me to a $1000000 for example a r r right so you might get the early stage. I want to raise a million dollars that will get me to this Target. And so to me ideal in that Target should also be The point where it will allow you to raise the next round of funding. That's sometimes the way people think about it. I don't like people to think about it too much that way cuz I always want you to think about every round of funding as is it as if it's your last you should treat it as such but for the most part is like, oh that would

be the most convincing thing is like this will buy these results gets my coming into this stage. And therefore you will Majin. At the valuation that you were buying into this company, you will not be able to imagine with a whole lot more as a result. So you are fundraising when one you need the money to grow. To your willing to give up the equity to grow number 3 you clearly know what is the miles under this will get your company now, he's what you might be able to say is like the way we know that will get us to admire someone cuz that ball will spend this much on products. We know we

have to get this much sales and we were to have this percentage to play around with a bunch of experimentation to see if we can get the product Market that The only thing is you need to have confidence like don't take people's money is not I think some of these days and mix it up with it's free money or it's just like its money and if it disappears it's gonna be totally okay, like it's other people's money. Don't take it unless you feel confident in yourself that you can grow this business and in most cases like having users and revenue already and it's growing at some Paces like good evidence.

Yeah right here. What are the factors of things not to do when you are a police change minimum wage or raise money? So the question is what what do people consider when they're in early-stage a common factors to consider an accelerator or was he there any weather warning signs of Parkinson's and that's basically the question is like, you know, there's a certain stage of the company dictate whether I go straight to voice like raising from Angels or I should let go to Annex accelerator an incubator and so do the complex answer that because that why I see we have a whole res everyone from like

Having a bad idea is a good but a good team and no traction that we find do people who already have millions of dollars in Revenue will do by Secor and usually the dude almost always it is like if you're before series as a white he's going to be helpful to you that being said we've had a handful of series a poster is a company's dyc Baxter's the joint and be a part of the community in the question. I think I had to do with like if you need money. You probably should not be picky. Like someone's $100,000 as good. As someone else

is $100,000. It's so for you if you're just like man, I really need this to like work on this full-time or like get to the next Milestone then like you should not be like bleach one. Should I choose for my list of all my options right? I don't think you should think about that. It's like the only people who will take you as an accelerator an incubator in the Saskatchewan then like God bless you you doing what is necessary to like make your passion and dream and I've no judgments against that like and if you become really great as a result of the nuts like that my problem I didn't figure

out how to find you or like except you when you find our program. So that is like money for the most part money, especially at the seed Stage II choosing which one would freeze up to you. And so like I can't see for any other program. So I have no idea how you know, it's some other program sort of compare. It's but a lot of people do incubators Because for us they're like, oh my God, I have a company. The reason why people like to do ideas like I have a coming to that like if I join that Community I could really settle into or I can take advantage of that sort of network. I'll be really

wonderful. That's number what number 2 is just like man. I want to raise a ton of money and you might want to pick yc2 to do that because we have this demo date that works really really incredibly and those people participate in our attempts to get a whole lot better deal again. I always think like there's no reason why any company should not apply to I see if you're thinking about raising money just because it's absolutely free to apply nothing to lose and we don't knock you for applying multiple times because we're only trying to figure out what are the reasons to fun. You not reasons not to

find you. Well, I don't know. I think the question is that aren't switching business models like you're starting my transaction, but then you may have to monetize with advertising and that's what it takes to build a billion-dollar company. I mean as I think it's the most important thing is our declining your Clarity of thought around it. And so you just saying like Haven built this product. This is our initial use a base. So damn you're doing transaction. You should know very clearly when you're switching because you seem to know that at least you ask this question before so saying that but

this is what it takes for me to switch that and I need a scale to get there and that's a fine enough pitch, but I think it's an investor they're going to look at what is today and what are you doing today? That was that's how they look at it. So I think the question is I've got some pre-sales or I've sold some stuff. I need an extra $1,000 to get to my next stage of growth. Should I give up 10% of my company to do that? Like I would have planned. So I need to raise x amount of dollars and I can get to this next

Milestone and just raise that maybe you have a little bit of a buffer. Like I wanted too much buffer for the burn that you're going to experience. But other than that, like don't raise the raise a ton more than you otherwise don't need to because you will be diluted and deletion in the early rounds and it's going to struggle bus down the road. That's a point of man. Right? Like that's not that's if you go to investors you can ask for 5% but this is I mean you. You just got it's a negotiation

right? That's not a I'm definitely going to do this whether they'll take it or not. I think this might be in the case of like it's seed right like it's like 20 $30,000 is what you need to get to get it finished. Okay for that small amount actually would advise you to try to get more sales. Can I get more customers are willing to who actually say like I want this enough that I'm willing to pay for it to have it sort of felt. So that's a Tuesday to buy to have it seems to me for that little money. I've seen companies like max out credit cards try to do

small business loan at said right that doesn't seem to me for building the MVP that you need to give up significant Equity. If it's that small amount that would be my personal recommendation to you like as an investor. Like course, I'll be like if I think what you're doing is promising I will give you money for Equity. But again on your end if there's any way that you can get to launch without that'll put you in the most favorable position when you negotiate later on the other thing about it is PG written the article essay talking about fundraising should be done as a

mode and what that means is like fundraising is so distracting and so time-consuming is basically a whole business model is like you doing B2B Enterprise sales, like asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars from people and so it's it's takes a special longer the time. It's so much effort that it would distract away from your company. And so when you do fundraising you should really only do it when you really need the money and that when you can dedicate time to it or like you're able to dedicate time to it without it sacrificing the growth of the company that's like the

ideal thing and then Amelie turn it off when it's done like time box set and get back to work. And so you don't want to be kind of like what you see a lot of nonprofits two words like perpetually in a fundraising modem half like doing what I'm products and also trying to also collect money at the same time as such like A division and multitasking that is so like not favorable to your company. And so I prefer not to be like how I do a little bit piece more here and I'm pee smell here and I hope he's not here number one. If you'd especially if you're doing on a pre money safe, you will not be

able to track your dilution very well. Unless you're like being diligent about it. It's a little bit easier if you're using our default post-money sick, but like again, it's not an ideal for your productivity and like grocery company to do dip at the fundraising just when you need it last question. Yes or across stage companies and there's a lot of noise but I like the framework that you sort of serves the metrics through are there other things that we should be looking at for a customer to

see if they're going to be growing with us from the 9 business models. Yeah, I think if you are, so, you know if your primary customer is not a groat States. UPS, the only metric that would track whether you're going with them is the cohorts right? So will you look at user attention or dollar attention? I mean, this is what tribe did write this is what checkered it and otherwise he company that sells to Uber and all that I chatting businesses. They grew up the start of school. So the only way you measure that is 300 hard to make it clear and

put this all into a framework because you just saw a bunch of extra metrics to also track in your like in the school program weekly update. It's only asked me for like one thing and so how do I wrestle these two contrary ideas together? And the way you're going to do it is like there's only one that really matters that it going to take to help if your company and so we've set it for 9% of us should be revenue and for very small percentage. It'll be something like engagement because the prerequisite for you getting Azibuike tomorrow's a good point to that these other metrics that on his talked

about. It's really about like what are the other things that are also probably be correlated with success of the company but also numbers that you should know yourself based on your business model than an investor is probably going to want to know about their things that will help you sound knowledgeable about your business or there's the stuff that we're going to want you to know cold. That's how we sort of evaluate Founders. Like I love Founders that know their numbers whenever someone is like, I don't know or have to look something up at cetera. It lets me know that as the founder

they're not consoling thinking about their company and they're not a magistrate of all the sort of variables that dictates their growth or their progress. So these other metrics helps us see into that and so don't get obsessed about tracking all of them. It's a tradition like if you have the opportunity you have that business model. It's going to be really great when you go into talking investors. That's the stuff that you want a bra. Stop on and make sure you have down cold out. But ultimately how much money is coming into the bank or how much people are really loving your product

on as frequent on active cycle as possible is going to be the best indicators for the truth of is my company doing well Etc. Okay this weekend and I are in Chicago. So we'll see all of you guys out there next week. There will be not a meet up, but there is going to be able to lecture on Wednesday. Thank you so much. We will mingle and I'll see you guys next week.

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