Course  Startup School 2019
July 22, 2019, Mountain View, CA., USA
Course Startup School 2019
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Dalton Caldwell - All About Pivoting
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About speaker

Dalton Caldwell
Partner at Y Combinator

Dalton Caldwell was the co-founder and CEO of imeem (acquired by MySpace in 2009), and the co-founder and CEO of App.net. He has a BS in Symbolic Systems and a BA in Psychology from Stanford University.

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About the talk

Topic: Business

YC Partner and Head of Admissions Dalton Caldwell talks about pivoting for startups and shares his advice on when and how founders should consider it for their companies.


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How's everybody doing? I'm Dalton. I'm a partner a y combinator. In addition. I'm the head of admissions, which is our selection process for the companies that get into YC. I'm here to talk about pivoting. Yeah, let's talk about Kevin and cool. Alright, here's some stuff. We're going to cover what the heck is a pivot why you should pivot when you should put it in evaluating ideas to Pivot to so I'm going to try to cover all the bases here. Alright, let's talk about the turn pivot. This is one of those terms that if I'm in a cafe and I hear someone talk about pivoting I roll my eyes

because it's one of those words that I suppose. He was annoying start up people and so let's let's just explain what we mean hear. It just means changing your idea. That's all it means and technically if we want to really technical I would call a troope Hibbett where it's like a real company and you have lots of users you raise money and you're like, we're in a shut this thing down and do something different. So the most famous example is slack. They raise money and have like a hundred employees for this video game called glitch. I was a beta user and they won Jae just shut it down and

like did something crazy. I don't call that a pivot. I think that's the values of it. Probably what Most of the folks here doing I interchange the cop heaven, but you should just call it changing your idea. It should feel really lightweight when you're at the earliest ages your company, especially pre-launch your beer and your after-lunch changing your ideas constantly is kind of the the norm and I wouldn't think that this is some huge thing. It should feel lightweight and frankly. If you're not in a state we are rapidly changing ideas or assumptions over and over and over again in quick

succession. You are likely doing it wrong. You are likely moving too slow. And so this is just like part of it change your idea constantly trying to find exactly the right version of your idea is something you should be doing the beginning. Let's talk about why you should put it. So the main reason I would argue is opportunity cost and the definition of opportunity cost is that the loss of potential gain from other Alternatives where one alternative is chosen other words, you can only really work on one thing at a time. Sometimes people try to violate that rule but that's a whole

different topic. Go by working on something. It's not working and you have evidence to this not working you are taking opportunity cost and I'll be doing something else. It's a simple as that, right? I don't know. I tried to to write some pseudocode her for you about another joke, but like how are things working divided by the number of months of conservative full-time effort if that number is less than exciting to work on something else, but confident you can find something better. You should put it into the key thing to do if you like look at his equation, like what am I really trying to

say it's that if you work on something for months and months and months and months and it's not happening. Like that's a pretty good signal right? But that's what drives this equation that I put hear. The most is the number of months you work on something and it's not working. It's so if you're throwing good good money after bad good time after bad and it's not happening for you. That is a pretty darn good signal but it's a really really really early and you don't even work on some in a couple of weeks. That's why it's obvious. Let's give you some good reasons to Pivot I hate working

on it. It's not growing. It's just not working. I'm keep doing nothing and nothing is happening. I'm not a good fit to be working on this idea. Like the more you learn about this the more you realize that you are just not the right person for the idea. Another one is I'm relying on an external Factor outside of my control to make my startup take off. So a couple of examples of that are like relying on mainstream virtual reality headset adoption. That's a good one and I like things going to take off and and you know, that's one of my VR apps him take off or like relying on

like mainstream Do adoption things like that. Those are like totally out of control. If you're just sitting here hoping someone else does something good and then your sorrowful work man. You should definitely put it another one is just we're out of ideas on how to make something work. You're just you're throwing everything against the wall to make your current idea work and you're you're actually kind of out of ideas that's usually sign. You should put it. Reasons to not pivot you're trying to run away from doing hard work. Sometimes you see people where they build a product and right when

it gets to sales time they pivot and they do that over and over again. That's probably not a good reason. It's just someone trying to dodge the sales part. So watch out for that. Also another reason I can move it is if you're the type of person that changes their idea over and over and over and over again, like chronically and you're detecting yourself doing that. It's good to actually follow something through all the way. So you just want to watch out for that happening also a good reason not to visit like, you know, you just hear there's some hot new thing you want to have it cuz you

write a text which article cuz someone raise money for hot new think that's not a great reason to Pivot. Let me give you some reasons on why people take so long to Pivot. And the reason I mention this is I would argue on average. Most people take too long to Pivot right? I think that's usually like if I had to put people in buckets more people take too long then then the rivers and so why do they take too long loss aversion when you feel like you've invested in something you have a really hard time letting go to And that's why I suppose you can you can research this have a little bit

of traction like you have a few users are like one customer here, like maybe it'll work that will make you not pivot and that's that's rough. Another thing is like people are very polite in the world and I have a hard time telling you the truth that they don't like the thing that you're working on and so a lot of Founders get confused about politeness and getting that confused with traction. And so you're never going to really I mean, maybe I can say never most likely you're not going to people being like your idea is horrible give up now. I will never be a customer. They're not

going to tell you that your face if you had a few more features and come back, right that's dangerous cuz you can end up doing that literally over and over and over again for like years and never actually get customers to watch out for politeness and getting the politeness confused with traction other one is healthier than a weakness or defeat. If you have that you're giving up in some way or other one is putting Blame and why things aren't working on customers are investors. So this is where you're like, I'm not wrong. The world is wrong, you know, like no one gets this

this is like way ahead of a time like that or not. A great sign and usually people realize that maybe it is kind of on them versus on the external world, but it takes a long time to get there and then finally as long as inspirational stuff out there that just like if you just believe hard enough and keep going, you know, the you'll eventually be recognized everything will be great. And so there's a lot of those inspirational messages out there and I can kind of be counterproductive the super like basically this is why talk about a little bit of traction thing. I called The

Uncanny Valley a product-market fit and you know, what's weird. I know this is a y c e partner. Someone that gets in NYC with an idea that should have total fail like immediately is actually the huge advantage and someone that has like a little bit attraction is that weird like a total fail the powers can declare bankruptcy on the idea immediately just work on other stuff with no regrets and no like second-guessing. Should I put it was really bad and having that freedom to immediately throw off the old lady and work on a new one is actually

a weird Advantage intuitive and she just want to really watch out for a little bit of traction be like seen that be a trap that capture a lot of really talented people for long periods of time. And then what you talked about the anecdotes? So anecdotes about you know stories of people that just kept doing what they were doing and didn't work and then five years later, you know, it was great. I think those are cool and their inspirational I like them. They're all truth, you know, they're anecdotes, but it's kind of like anecdotes about people that you know play the lottery

every day for like 5 years and then they won Lottery and now they're like really happy and you know, that's super cool. But before you write, there's nothing you can do with this anecdote about someone that like just kept believing strong enough like I would much rather give people advice to play the statistics of this and to take accountability for like their own actions in the world than just like hope and dream that you might be one too and it goes too. And so if you decide to Pender don't decide if it just remember you decide it's your life and if it works out good or

bad that's on you and so often I get Founders that want to push this decision on me. Is that why she partner other authority figures about this idea working or not? When should I know when to give up and ultimately all we can do is give you guidance but this is exactly in the class of problems that is on the founder and never summon. You should look to an authority figure to tell you how to decide Product Market fit I'm sure you know, I don't we talked about this a lot. It's been discussed a lot of startup school and it's because it is so important most people will never get it probably most

people watching this don't have it. Even if I think of you and you know, you have it when growth is not your biggest problem. It's other stuff and one good reason to have it is you just get more shots on goal to try to get this elusive thing. Right? Like if you made something and you launched it and it's like man not really working a damn good reason to Pivot is you get another roll of the dice get another shot. And so I just seen people that use these opportunities really. Well, it's much easier to be lucky when you get like half a dozen shots on goal and one right and so just if we're just

playing the statistics of how do I get product Market fit taking several high-quality shots is a high-quality. You can't just constantly play with your stuff in there to watch it. But if you do a full awesome product integration of making something completing it shipping it giving it to people falling all the device you're looking here. And you can give yourself multiple those shots. I would argue you are creating look for yourself. And the odds are you actually hit something that works are much higher than some of it. Only ever takes one shot. Okay. I had to find a better idea here is

the advice that I get people during the batch when they are looking for an I just give it to find something that you're more excited about and it makes you more optimistic about the world and more generally more excited to wake up in the morning and work on the thing and not less excited. And there's a corollary here in this I think it's counterintuitive often choosing what is perceived as a herder idea is more is good. And so I see a lot of people were there like working on some like add Network add text saying you like affiliate something targeting. I don't know

those like never work and it's because they're not inspirational and no one cares. And so when you see people go from that into something that's really really exciting right like oh I want to help small business owners do Acts or I'd accompany this last batch and they did they started with a text saying that they are all very bored with an a Did you Robin Hood for India and the moment they put it to that day at the founders of her like they lit up and every conversation I had with him. They were like so excited about their idea and it's contagious talking to them and it was almost

like a different like the amount of change is a thing found hers. But what changed is that? They found idea there was a real that they were excited about and not just some like born ad Tech crap. No one cares about that stuff. Okay. So if you're doing something that seems like a good startup idea cuz running TechCrunch people raise money for it, but it's not inspiring to you and your life man. This is pretty lame that's more exciting to another thing to do on a make an honest assessment of what you're good at. This is hard, but you want to be really self aware of what you're good and bad at

and play to the strengths and another thing here for find a good idea. Especially if I find something that you can very quickly build invalidate and not some of it takes like a year or two of R&D write often. Like if you pay that from one thing that's impossible to ship into another thing is impossible to ship not good. Ideal you find him. It's way easier to ship like really fast highly recommended quick note here Tavion. It's totally okay to work an idea where you're not going to research Capital all good most businesses the world don't require venture-capital until all of your if

what you're doing is consuming lots of content on how to start a company like this and it's all kind of like venture-capital Focus stuff and you're not going to do something that raises Venture Capital you can come and get blown off course idea wise and so just be self-aware about this and realize that if you do you want to raise venture capital The idea does matter a lot and there's a constant like a recurring theme I see is people that are trying to raise money for something that is definitely not Venture Capital fund a bowl and they get really frustrated everyone gets

frustrated with that. It just it doesn't make sense for all businesses until just be self-aware of this region idea of like is this something at least hypothetically is easy funnel just give you some relief, What was I mean? I don't think there's a guidebook for what Ventura scale means but now I hear some rules of thumb. Can I imagine this business generating hundreds of millions or billions and net revenue per year. Can I imagine the revenue growth to get those numbers to happen in like less than 10 years or 5 years like in It Happened really fast. Can I imagine this thing that

I'm doing is a publicly traded company Someday my picture time do you light? It Kevin's first lecture talk about this but these are all things like if you just can't see any of these that's not a great sign and other Key properties that uses Knology the key component and using the founders build the technology lease in early days for something to be findable. You want to see really high margins up for everything. But again just a rule-of-thumb software margins, you know, 80% gross margin 70% gross margins really high margins to somebody would want to see and then just it's funny. Like I

think a lot of people learn about fundraising from Shark Tank and I don't think a lot of that stuff is refundable just in case you were wondering if it's possible for people that want to put products up together, but I don't know if you know, I think you have a hard time raising money from Peter Coppola for the majority of stuff. But like I said earlier, it's your call is your is your dream. So I figured out when's the best time to put it as soon as these things happen you've launched and trying to get users for weeks or months and you feel hopeless. It feels hopeless. You should probably

put it when the idea is impossible to get started with like cool wants me to raise a hundred million dollars. Then we will build a prototype. You should definitely pivot if you're one of those people because unless A hundred million dollars you are in a chicken-and-egg unsolvable issue. And here's another one. You know when your heart is not going to work a lot of Founders. No secretly that their thing isn't working but they want to keep up this front to everyone in the world that is working and they think they can fool people into funding them are working with them if you can't

convince yourself and you know, this isn't really working man is not a good time to Pivot right like, you know more than anyone else about your business. You got to listen to yourself and it's sometimes not stuff. You want to hear from your phone. Okay, let's talk about other people's stuff if you put it over and over and over again to cause Whiplash Whiplash is very bad because it causes Founders to give up and not want to work on this anymore and then actually kills a company weirdly. It's more deadly to your company to get Whiplash and get sad then to work on a bad

idea. Cuz if you're having fun working on a bad idea, you won't give up and then conceivably you can maybe make it work. If you get really sad and hate your life while you working on your startup, you will definitely not succeed and it's because you will give up until this is weird like it's kind of better to work on an idea. That's not the best one if you're really having fun and then You just want to be in a happy medium some Founders pivot way too much and they'll probably watch this lecture and then like a pivot once a day for 6 weeks. Don't do that and some people just work on the same

idea for 5 years and it's not working and they took a really upset about it. Just find a happy medium like everything else in life. So don't do it. It just makes it slower and make them really sad. And so trying to scale up like a team and taking all the advice you about how to scale a team why you don't even know what your idea is you think you're going to change your idea definitely not best practices. It only slows you down. I would only add people to the team after you know, your idea is working at you out compliments. Otherwise, it's just all down side. Okay, let's go to a different

thing here. I made this up for this lecture and I came up with a subjective notion of a quality score just to give you a few criteria to evaluate an idea. Okay. And so what I did is there, you know 40 things that I think you could use to evaluate. Quality of an idea and you could give them a 1 to 10 in the average dose together to get an overall quality store. Okay, so I may just go into detail me how big of an idea it seems to be. This is the stuff I talked about earlier. Is this an obvious publicly traded company? Like I don't know Tesla. Hey, it's a new car company has lots of

publicly traded car companies. That seems pretty big a new bank has lots of banks that are publicly traded that seems pretty big the opposite of the spectrum is like, I don't know I franchise a Subway. I'm going to buy from Subway franchise, you know, I know I'm in the import some stuff and sell it on eBay, you know, probably a little less obvious that's big. It is really really key. So again a 10 out of 10 would be hey, I was on the self-driving car team when I was an undergrad and then I work on self-driving cars my whole career. And so now I'm into a

self-driving car startup. That's a 10 out of 10 as you're out of town is like I'm going to do some kind of advanced AI startup and I don't know how to program. That's as you're out of town right there don't recommend that how easy is it to get started on that is actually I think undersold. I don't people realize this is actually really key is ideas that are easy to start highly recommended and there so many really good ideas out there that never work because the founders can't figure out how to get started and then someone that future does the same idea that's a much better way to get started

and then they win and the people get better because I had that idea. So I would argue getting find the idea that easy to get started with is just as important as the idea itself and finally really Market feedback from customers. This just means does do people want it immediately in a sales straightforward or is it just impossible? So let me give you some examples of companies that I worked within advised @yc that you may or may not have heard of braccus one there in NYC winter 17. And then I found them to do a different idea and talk to unlock Draenor pivot and they put it in the

batch and they got product-market fit pretty quickly and they have now raised hundreds of millions and billions in two years. So it's like one of those rare outlier story. I'm not saying this is common, but holy cow. I got a front row seat to watching one of the most epic pivot of all time. I think maybe there's other ones but I was like, wow that really worked out before and after he was what they started with they have this idea for a new VR Hardware headset that you would use to do work or something. And so if you hear the scores, I just put in you know, I

put these are now the identities of the time but how big is a senior seems like medium big like VR headsets? I don't be traded ones, but that seems like the future, right? I give a 1 out of 10 these guys knew nothing about Hardware or Optics or any of the things associated. They were just send text software folks. So they had literally no idea what they were doing and they were very upfront about that. How is it was he started? That's only a two and the reason is they had to hire Hardware people to build a prototype not a good sign and needed millions of dollars to build a prototype not a

good sign and it would take like years and years and years of manufacturing is pretty bad. And then finally really Market feedback they went and talked to people and they're like you want to use this and no one wanted to use it. So this was bad. Okay. So overall score 2 1/2 out of 10 most of it credit card for startups. That seemed pretty big there's tons of publicly traded, So it's like fintech companies, you know, it didn't even start uplanders their Square their stripe. I mean, there's lots of examples of that so I get out of 10 identity of the time. Of market and the reason is

they have started a fintech company earlier in Brazil and it was successful and they sold it for like $20 house and had all these existing relationships man. Is that such a better fit. How is he started? Cuz they actually it's hard to launch a new credit card product. This is one where he don't have time to make it fit. I would not necessarily try this at home. There was something about the time to Marquetta made it easy and then finally the early Market feedback. I'm getting ate out of 10 minutes because in the back there like hey, do you have a

credit card? Do you want to be a customer in people were like, yes. No, the hotel process like I witnessed it multiple times. So if if that's your sales process good, it's like a threesome is Hills processing people say yes, that is good about retool their winter 17 and there are really good task company and honestly, everyone should check it out and maybe use it. It's a tool to build internal tools it awesome. I'm encouraging all the way she started to use this to build internal management Pages. It's it's actually like a really great

product. So that's what Rachel is you should look at it creeped him. It was venmo for the UK. How big is Simpsons predict like Thanos big spider Marcus at 3 to 10. They didn't really know anything about fintech but they managed to get along. So there's something there. How is it with you started? I mean that a 7 out of 10 because they already they already had a bunch of losers that sounds pretty impressive and you know back there was only three at a time and the reason is no one wanted to pay and they're losing money on every transaction. There's all these reasons this was Really

working and so they decide to pay that even though this is an example of the Insidious sort attraction, right? They had enough traction that it was like hard to decide to give up on this because I had users and it was like kind of working. So that was a tricky one to oppose pivot is no code internal tools built filter out at 10 because 80% of all soft adult is rental consumption on external consumption like a big companies. And so that seems like a big Market to me find a market that 10 out of 10. One of the founders had made something like this. It is college internship. And so

he had a very good idea of what the product should be relevant to it to get started. They building in 2 weeks and got the first customers great and out of 10. People interested in it, but they weren't sure they want to try some new start up to this thing. So it this one did not fly off the proverbial shells to get some users but it was not immediately obvious product-market fit had to build out of it. Sounds great have it next week. Magic there in Winter of 15 the temperature in the batch. And what's great about them if they build a profitable and sustainable company. Yay. I wish

we all could do that, right? How do they do it started off with this idea for a blood pressure coach where that happened. You enter your blood pressure and it will tell you how to lower your blood pressure didn't seem like they didn't know anything about health whatsoever or much along those lines. That's probably just the two at a time. I was here with you by 10 cuz they built the Opera look like if he was like not good. I really polite and no one use the damn thing but their users was horrible.

So this one was again with kind of obvious. They should pay that. They realize it on their own pretty quickly. And then they pulled a bunch of prototypes. They actually built the magic prototyping a weekend. No joke. This is actually true. Exaggeration and they put on Hacker News and it went to number one and got like two thousand. Boats and it blew up overnight. I know if anyone remembers this thing, but it went like crazy viral and they got all this press like it was the most it was an example of a shots on goal thing. I was talking about earlier where they didn't know it like that

like five ideas and there's no way I would have known they would have known that this would be the thing that would capture the world imagination, but it did and so not obvious but it was very easy to get started. It got really good early Market feedback and it seems pretty big that was rated also independently Inspire tons and tons of clones. So I would argue that anyone is doing chatbot stuff. It's sort of like a direct descendant about when this thing blew up in a regular cup chatbots with a future with sort of like second-order effects from this going so crazy viral

and is Byron some people segment Why do some more 11b pivoted a bunch of times including years after the bachelor took him a really long time to get it going? They didn't even have it in the back and now they're worth billions and it's a really good company the top 10 infrastructure company that they had this thing. That was a classroom feedback tool. We're like, you would give it to students in a classroom and they could say if it was if they were lost or not. I think was what the future was. I'm so if you were confused you like push a button and it would tell the Professor. Okay didn't

seem huge in my opinion. They were students and they were young. So I would give that like a 5 out of 10, they were experts in education, but they understood the audience. It was easy to get started. They built a really fast and Market feedback was actually decent where professors like it and they got a bunch of school to adopt this thing. So their sales were successful. But ultimately this was not you know, what took them on the border of years to discard this one and yeah, it's good that they did because now they're doing Again what you're going to use to

data collection tool? That one did not seem obviously big. I didn't hear you segment. Is this JavaScript thing you put on your page and it connects to other tools. It was less obvious how that would be a publicly traded company at the time but the bottom work if it was great because they built so much analytics stuff. They were World expert on alenick already when they built it. It was easy to get started because they literally built this thing an open-source it and give away for free and people begged for them to support it like the market bags of this product to exist. They didn't think

this was a company they just had this like thing on GitHub and so many people were obsessed with this thing that they built their like. Well, I guess the mark is telling us we can make this the company and they did it so that I would say is easy to get started and really good Market feedback, you know, what the markets begging for something and that you don't even think it's going to have to get into it's good. That's a pretty good time. Okay, in summary, I tried even those examples just to give you a real real real life examples of stuff that I personally worked on just a show like the

before-and-after and how these decisions are really made. And so change your idea is part of a start up the sooner the better because the opportunity cost in the shots on goal type of stuff and when you're considering change your ideas, but the only stages shouldn't feel like a big deal. He's probably do it all the time and following best practices is recommended. Hopefully, I gave you some good pointers on what does best practices are but if you really scientific about this, you can dramatically increase the odds that you're starting to work. That's it for me. Thanks.

All right, we're going to do some questions. Yeah. Alright, you're considering pivoting and starting the different directions. I would put that under the variable around Sounder excitement. And so if you yourself are like in your heart, I'm going to build this thing and like I'm going to copy and there's no. Entry. That's a good sign. It may not be great. But again in the case of magic are made each other's there is basically no barrier to entry other than execution. But if you are really worried about the idea even Inception time,

that's probably good signal you want to think about it in the eye of the beholder of the founder if that's the thing. I'm most worried about versus not that worried about. So what made you add up all those free tickets, I think so in the case, they built a really successful company before and they were very ambitious. And so I just had lots of confidence you didn't they weren't really sure that I was right idea for them. And I know they clearly had the technical skills on that. I think the

other examples the same with magic they build the product launch that they had really traction. They had great skills on the team Rachel Bishop pretty popular app in the UK that had tens of thousands of users mental all those they kind of had a thing that was in a decent State and there's something really exciting about it. And that was a major reason why I think it's pretty consistent with all device. You're getting here it right like you really make something to give it to people and you have all the right stuff people will take a chance on on things. Amigo a different

are the question is how do you deal with when they found her? Thanks a ton for the team doesn't so this is actually one of those things why it's bad to have a team. If you're this early is because you will create bad morale issues. If you hit it with a team, especially a large team and it's because they were hired to do a job. Like it's like you're working somewhere. You know, you're working at slaking you like video games are just kidding. Where do this other

thing? Like what like the people to Career? They have a goal like they're not thinking the way I found her things. And so I imagine have you ever work somewhere with a they pivoted. It's like pretty lame like it. So putting people through that is rough. If you want to try to retain these people you want to really reason with them and listen to them, but ultimately someone could be like I signed up for Project X and you want to do projects. You may may be in after you need to part ways and it's it's no fault. It's just a lot of times people to join your company for a mission or an idea. If

you change the idea, it's really easy for the employees to be like, I'm not interested in this over there. So maybe because you know, how big something is so I try to give you some examples but I think that you don't have to overthink it if people will give you lots of money for it quickly and easily and it's very obvious how you make lots of money quickly. That's usually a good sign. Like I don't think looking up Gartner studies or stuff like that is a good use of your time. But if it's like

really obvious how you can go to get lots of Revenue really fast without convoluted ideas. That's a good sign versus if Just doing something that is hard to imagine some oil ever paid for or you're just going to have to lose hundreds of millions of dollars are raisins a million dollars that usually sign here. I kind of want you I guess what I'm trying to say. Let's do you blew out with no traction versus a little bit cash and to what is that movie that you shouldn't find used to know you had that married to Okay, what is the kind of

little bit of traction should avoid it's basically where you're either flat like you get some early users of some sort of customers with some sort and then sort of flatlined and you feel like you're pushing a boulder uphill and no matter what you do. You're still Flat Line in the thing's not working. Like you feel like you're putting in tons and tons of effort and there's just not much be back or pay off that things are getting easier. If anything we might be getting harder and this is super subjective stuff. But it's very obvious when you talk to a hundred office hours when they don't have

product Market fit it's because they're like exasperated that no matter what they try and I try and everything. It's just not working. And so Flatline is a good way to detect that is if your overall growth is Flatline, Eric what should be focusing on for the next 25 days after the deadline is September 25th. What should we focus on for plane to buy C and were pre-launch and we don't need a whole thing here, but you should not be free lunch. That's a great way to demonstrate that you are again, even if you

need to change your idea that demonstrates competence like the act of launching and going through the process alone demonstrates really good stuff. Even if you end up needing to change idea the toughest thing is if there's One is behind is a lot of Krypton networks right now are launching something similar question was about one of my company's I guess I didn't go to this. I probably pivoted personally seven or eight times and I've done a lot of things at my startups and so he had a specific question. One of them. I would say for the half done that use case. I did not enjoy working on

it anymore. That was likely like honest to God. That's exactly the advice. I just gave here. I was like not enjoying myself. And so I'm not sure what to say about the market I have that's a long conversation but to follow my own advice. I lost enthusiasm and excitement that that was a good use of my time. And so that was how I made my decision unit situation baby boss on something for you and we feel that it can be used for a different problem. Would you call and

Oliver service. So we built this thing for a year and it's not taking off but we realize there might be different Market to sell it too. And so my answer would be can you test this really fast? This is what I tell people when they have these like Forks in the road is if you can find a way to test his other Market in like a week or two or three weeks heck. Yeah, don't you know like but if it's like what we need to spend another carrier on this with no Market feedback whatsoever. That sounds rough. And so it's best if you put lots of time into something look for Waste very quickly validate or

test it or get customers because my guess is you build a lot of stuff. And so it's yeah, hopefully you can get quick Market feedback that you can get customers fast in this new market. Yeah, go ahead and just had one thing to that social solution in search of a problem. This is a concept of avoiding this when you're first starting the company and so you don't want to be building something without having a user or problem in mind cuz it makes it much more difficult when you're starting your startup. If you already have this thing built, then you need to then the advice is

not to be like Oh, I'm like, I don't have a problem that I've done if I could if I should have been done all the work that I've done and so like that does not those are like independent things. And so once you realize that you're in that situation that can be difficult. The question is like, oh do I need a pivot? Do I need to change or am I going to eventually find a good fit for that prompted? The whole thing is a size P just makes it much more difficult for you. So you're in this situation in the question is basically like hey, you should probably put it into wherever the growth you may

find. What's up? Yes, vine line between fast not fast. This is one of those interesting subjective things or someone. There's like anecdotes of people that go off and spend five years building stuff in a vacuum and like those are great. I put on an act what section I get really are that sometimes people do buildings in a vacuum for five years. That's a great idea. But in general I consider fast or not fast for I think it's context-dependent. If you do me like a

biotech, then it might be months or years. But if you're just doing something that's pure software and you could build pretty quickly and get user pretty quickly. You want to see your generation cycle on the order of weeks like major progress on the order weeks if not months definitely weeks and if it's if it if your interation Cycles to like try a new idea and test it out or like launcher version or go get a gun to a bunch of customer feedback is on the order of months or longer. That's probably too slow. And I know this is a tricky I can't give you the one always pushes me either

like what what's the actual metric? It's just super context-dependent right. Now. This is why I try to give you concrete examples is they had those all all is coming at different cycles and he's a magic that was a really fat. Cycle it was it was literally days to go through that pivot innovation in a case of Brats that was months until I think it's because I'm an idiot. Yeah, I think for software less than 10 weeks at least it feel like you've made major progress and you've learned a lot. This is a question. I ask people. What have you learned since you

can't articulate that you're still learning things constantly and you're reassessed some of these some picture meaning changing them. That's a good sign. You're not moving fast enough. You should be constantly learning new stuff cool. Cool. Thanks everybody.

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