Course  Startup School 2019
July 22, 2019, Mountain View, CA., USA
Course Startup School 2019
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Kevin Hale - How to Work Together
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About speaker

Kevin Hale
Partner at Y Combinator

Kevin Hale was the cofounder of Wufoo, which was funded by Y Combinator in 2006 and acquired by SurveyMonkey in 2011. He was responsible for Wufoo’s much-admired design and speaks widely about UX. Before Wufoo he wrote about design for Particletree and was editor in chief of the web development magazine Treehouse. He has a BA from Stetson University in Digital Arts and English.

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About the talk

Topic: Business

YC Partner Kevin Hale talks about the importance of building a successful working relationship with your cofounders, and setting up processes to optimize for the strengths of your team.


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these are some guys I saw in Kyoto turn down the scaffolding and I just think they're amazingly poetic and how they do their work in a startup. Founders basically have to figure out how to optimize for a relationship that lasts for like 10 years and that's a crazy thing to do with someone you might only know for a couple of months or I've only known as would have work setting and the thing is like the only models for Understand that kind of relationship actually come probably from

my parents. And so I'd like to start off with some marriage research so that this is John gottman. He studied his marriages in Seattle. He's in featured in This American Life and a bunch of different places. And basically he has a cool magic trick. He can watch a couple fight about something for 15 minutes and predicts with 85% accuracy with old they'll be divorced or not for years from now if he watches them for an hour and have them also share their hopes and dreams his prediction rating goes up to 94% And so this is the same videos they would show

two priests psychologist psychiatrist marriage counselors because they married couples and they don't predict better than random chance. I'm so drunk, He's figure something out. There's something about the way we won't have an argument that determines longevity and one of the most surprising things that you discovered was that it's not that successfully married people who will last a long time that they never fight turns out everybody fights and we all fight about the exact same things money kids sex time jealousy and the

in-laws And time is usually what are we going to do with our free time? And the thing that's interesting is like I think all of these map out to the stuff that we're going to fight about in a company. And so you with your co-founders are going to have these issues and the thing is what's nice about knowing everyone fights and that you know, what you're going to fight about is that we can make a plan for figuring out how to deal with this one situation that will determine whether we will work together on the thing that were so passionate about down the

road. The other thing that John got me figured out is that there's four major things we want to avoid when we're fighting and when we do these things they will create sort of leading indicators that the relationship is in serious trouble. I'm going to go through each one of these so criticism. This is basically like you're talking with someone and you're like, hey, you know what? I have a serious concern about this bug that we are trying to fix and I'm really worried about this thing and I'm not sure that we would be able to deploy on

time and someone comes up and says like what you know, what I don't like is the fact that you leave a bunch of dirty dishes in the sink and criticism is basically this idea that we don't fight on one topic. We start trying to bring all these other issues into play instead of addressing the one issue at hand dangerous. Printemps pretty easy one intention to insult. So basic I say like, hey, I'm worried about this bug and where I can be able to the point in time. Don't Tesla I don't like your face, right that's contempt and what you want to avoid this making things

personal business. This one's kind of easy to understand is that someone not owning responsibility about the problem until we can't move forward because someone won't admit that there's a problem. There we defend that we haven't done anything wrong and therefore that can't be resolution between two people the other person thinks there's a problem. This one is a super dangerous one and it's when basically you're like, hey, I got a problem and the person just walks away won't engage won't talk to you and so there can be no way to create any

kind of resolution. So just as you wouldn't do this without doing some of this we want to make a plan and I'm going to talk about four different things that we can do that helps avoid and protect us from those four horsemen. The first one is divide and conquer this feels pretty straightforward. But you want to do this early in a relationship with your co-founders and in the early stages of your company. So here's our list again of the types of things that we might have problems with and in the early stage of the start. Let's say Adora and I

are doing a start together just heard me then what you want to do is just kind of say like, oh who's responsible what stuff? And what this will do is like if there's a problem in that category, then that person that we have assigned ahead of time to be in charge will be the ones that ultimately had to make the decision or ultimate are responsible. This protects us from defensiveness. So no decir on jealousy. This is about competition usually and so usually in the early stages of your startup you should not be worried about competition competition

is not used to it kills you in the very early stages of your company as your company ages. It might change and look something like this. You'll sign things a different sort of positions and heads and as a result then when their moms come up, you know, basically. Sort of his delicate that what happened. If things go out of hand even about those sort of levels will basically what you want to do is decide after you delegate who has ownership determine what a success and failure. You want to know also ahead of time. Hey, we

divided up the task we want to know is like hey, when is there going to be interference with a person that is supposed to be leading these decisions? What is considered like its success enough that we shouldn't be interfering just let them do what they think is best and what is considered really bad so that we have to interfere and something has to be done about it. So in this case good examples would be like, hey, you know if we successfully fundraise like we don't need to talk or like replace the person is responsible for that for shipping on Time cover rated top 3 among the are sort of

peers or we've built referral program. That's working. Hey, we don't need to be criticized in the person that's working on the stuff or they're doing a good job. On the corollary we wanted this mine. Hey, what are the things that basically are going to trigger conversations really hard conversations. Like hey, if we hit this sort of area we need to put the brakes on I mean to discuss what's going on and actually try to resolve these problems a lot of people like to delegate stuff but they don't have a way of saying hey, when are we going to have a conversation about this when

there's trouble and he's a really really easy to do and the reason you want to do these early While You're Sober emotionally sober it's cuz once you get angry and emotions come into play, then you might not be thinking rationally not ultimately the end. Usually it's the CEO in the company was final say now you as a team to decide differently how you want to resolve it. If you do if you divvy up the stuff, but ultimately whoever's to see how uses when he resolves at and if there's problems with the CEO, then it's the board and the early stages of startup. The board is usually composed

of just the founders. So you have to ultimately work it out. The second defense against the fourth Horseman is knowing yourself. This will protect you from stonewalling and when I mean is what is your attachment style? So there was all this research that was done in the 1960s about how people approach relationships. I am basically I was determined that they're sort of three major types. There's a secure attachment style and that means basically like hey, you know what? I don't have a problem going up to people

relying on them and having them rely on me and sort of like us creating a relationship. I don't mind being vulnerable and I don't I don't mind other people being vulnerable with me that's called a secure attachment Style. Is an anxious now, so there's a type of person that would be like, you know what I kind of don't get enough. Love is not as much as I want kind of want to like hold on to people and I kind of want to have people come to me confirm with me that they want to be with me. I feel like it's a little difficult and it's another point that kind of person is like

I find it kind of difficult. Creating relationship with people and I kind of want to run away sometimes cuz it's really scary or I'm worried that I'm going to mess it up and the thing that's super important here Switch music up binder as you want to know your co-founders attachment style. Is that going to dictate how you are going to be able to resolve and understand your differences that what it turns out early enough is that anxious attachment person and an avoidant attachment person. These are the two most common in the world. There's not that many like well develop secure people

out there. They tend to want to be with one another. So the person that wants to run away and the person that wants to clean until you have is someone who needs space to make a decision and the process problems and tension and as someone who needs validation constantly the process Complex in issues. And so when those who people are together and they don't realize what the other person is, they don't realize that they're going to have to been to sort of make it work. What's a good books on attachment Styles is a wonderful Wikipedia page that covers that I would recommend

watching this YouTube videos from school of life. And what I would highly recommend is basically understanding that like if you're with someone that is at the opposite type that you're going to have to do work either to reach across the aisle, like if you were an anxious person you're going to end your talking to an appoint a person you just have to realize like oh that person's needs space, but that doesn't mean they're running away from you. And if you were to avoid a person with an anxious person that if someone needs your attention, or if you need your space than you have to let them

know it's okay. I'm going to be back. I realize that you're going to need an answer for this. I'm going to go wait and I figure stuff out and I promised a time that we will deal with this. Document a process. So this will protect you from criticism. And so basically when you're emotionally sober is the best time to create a processed for dealing with disagreements. And the reason you want to do this is because once you're upset and angry and filled with emotions, you are not going to be thinking straight. And so

the odds are you might say something you regret might say something that you don't mean the other person might do so and then you will have a much different problem than the bug not being fixed and deployed what time tell what a my favorite examples of this comes from a company called matter and they created a spreadsheet for dealing with this agreement. Basically, it's a disagreement a decision framework and they say just talks about it's like hey We have a disagreement. We should just documented this house makes things really really transparent makes us understand both sides very very

clearly. We talked about the different options. We take who made the decision what the decision was the date was done and the rationale and when we walk through this process that we've decided this ahead of time then it means that we are not afraid when disagreements come up. It's like we have a process for dealing with this and we will figure it out by filling out Excel. There's lots of different ways to do this. You don't have to follow their sort of very specific framework. They have lots of really great justifications in their article. You just have to agree

ahead of time what you want to do. So therefore when you are upset you just go. Okay great. We have a process for this and it process says so it says go have a timeout or eat a bologna sandwich or like take a nap first and then we'll figure out what we have to do. It could be a process where it's like a if there's a real disagreement and both sides equally strong we will flip a coin and then that will be the decision for the test of time. We will let Lady Luck this beside. It doesn't matter. You just have to both agree. This strategy will protect you from contempt. So

the way that you avoid making things personal as you have to figure out weight of communicating with another in a way that will not be threatening. There's an amazing book on this. It's called nonviolent communication by Marshall Rosenberg and it helps you be honest with other people without criticizing without insulting without putting down other people in the magic comes in the structure that feels somewhat fake for people who are not into being touchy-feely basically when you're giving some kind of criticism you want to basically I've been in this format. So when

some observations I feel an emotion because I'm needing some Universal need would you be able to request So we're just going to break down each one of these different parts and they're all every single one of these are tricky and it's a thing that lot of people will try to do in your Center whole life trying to get really good at and it is really difficult. The first one is you need to make an observation versus having an evaluation. So basically what you want to do is start your disagreement or criticism by anchoring at the something that is concrete.

You do not want it to be something that is connected to a pinion. It should be something that you actually saw or heard. Cuz therefore you can't disagree with something that actually happened versus something. I heard I heard a rumor or something that has to do something that needs emotional or something that seems like an opinion so I'll give an example. An observation would be like you said that you said that document last week and I haven't received it. All right, so that is a great observation and evaluation. That someone might say instead In the Heat of the Moment is that

you're fucking lazy. Right. Kind of feels like an observation, but it's not it's a value in the person give me another example, your work is sloppy that is not objective said a three of the numbers in this report were inaccurate. That's where you want to start. You're always late. Going to be really careful because that's a generalization in evaluation observation. Hey, you arrive 10 minutes late to the meeting this morning. Evaluation you ignored me

observation. I sent you two emails and I haven't received a response notice when we start with observation. We start with a fact that can't be refuted until we're not going to end up arguing about something else. Notice all those other evaluations the immediately will trigger an emotion in you and do I tell you want to be really careful that means start this criticism that you don't start with one of those the Nexus we have to talk about emotions, right? So I saw this irrefutable observation and it made me feel something and what we have to

be really careful of is not saying thoughts but instead talking about feelings which is kind of odd, but it's connected to the next point in the in the structure. So in Emotion will be I feel frustrated. Right now I thought would be any could be put in the same structure is like I feel that you weren't taking this seriously and the way you can tell if something is a thought or feeling is you substitute the phrase I think with I feel and it still works. So I think frustrated doesn't work. So that's a

feeling. I think that you aren't taking this. Seriously. That's a thought. Does a couple of emotion that we have to be particularly careful of one is Anchor cuz anger is usually tied to a bunch of host of other things. So when someone says that I feel angry you or you realizing that you feel angry you want to be really really specific about what's causing the anger what's triggering it the other tricky emotions are evaluative emotions. And usually what you need to figure out is what underlines that evaluation so I'll give you an example.

So I feel blamed someone else's evaluating me. I still blamed the impact actually is I feel scared. Someone is blaming me until I feel scared. So take a lot of work to understand that when someone is giving me some I'm feeling like some kind of judging feeling what is at the core root of it other examples are I feel judged Social impact is I feel resentful. I feel misunderstood impactful statement is actually I feel frustrated. I feel rejected really packed is I feel hurt. Super tired. It's super super hard.

How to link inside of this presentation to a PDF it's three pages of evaluative emotions. M package feelings you probably actually are feeling and then connects is 2 and Universal need that you need to overcome it which leads us to our next thing every negative emotion. Lies and unmat Universal need and so what that means is that like when you're feeling one of these frustrated or blamed or scared or hurt feelings, there's something that's missing. That you're going to need and this thing that's really tricky about Universal

needs. Did you have to be careful realizing? Is it a strategy or is it in need and is it truly Universal? So I'll give an example right? You might be able to say I need a sandwich. Man is not Universal need to have to be really careful. Right and then you might say like I need a sandwich to give me nourishment. That's more like a strategy. a much better way might be you might say something. Like I need you to copy Mia on every single email. But the thing is that's not a universal needed that's

becomes a very very specific Universal need would be I need some transparency about this process. You have to be careful of not making needs about something that's very specific to yourself or just that situation because once it's a universal need then it's something that everyone can agree that everyone should sort of have two other Universal needs are like I need support and the way you turn it into Universal needles by saying something like I need support from you. It's not everyone needs support from Henry, right, but everyone does need support. Message you include

from you. It stops being Universal. Do you want to be really careful of this? Okay? Request versus demand so at the very end. So basically I noticed something that can't be refuted. I told you about a feeling and how it impacts me and I told you the basic it results in some Universal need that we all can agree that we need to have and now we get to stop like that have changed as a result. And what you want to make is a request not Adam and the difference is that a request is an invitation to the other person to meet are Universal needs

easier to be able to do than to say like I order you to do something. So we want to do is make it very specific request. So I request for you to be more respectful is not that great because who defines what's respectful my version of respectful might be different from someone else's you request should be something like I request that you arrive to meetings on time. Say what you want. Don't say what you don't want. So what a lot of people will say is I

request that you don't dismiss other people's ideas straight away. The thing is it doesn't indicate the behaviors that you do want. And so it becomes really difficult to act on a better one would be I request that when a team member shares an idea. You asked two or three probing questions before sharing a conclusion. And then stay curious. And so sometimes you might make a request and someone might say no and what you need to do is not just freaked out that the whole process isn't working. The idea is actually to be like

maybe I haven't put this request in a way that can meet more needs than just myself could I do this in a way so that they can understand it be on board for everyone to be assertive involved. Do you want to learn more does a really great article on delivering constructive feedback and if it was suggested by Dave Bailey the zombie tomorrow have a link to it. He goes into far more detail and is a very very good starting point for giving out this really hard feedback. We all know what technical debt is right? So when we're building out software really really

quickly and sometimes you like. Well that's not going to scale really really well and it's going to be dirty and you get out the door and I'm just going to put that in the back of my mind. It's something I have to fix later well in our relationships one another you will incur emotional debt and only technical that you really don't want that to go for very long. You want to pay this down every day. So it turns out also John gottman's research that it wasn't that People who were really good at being in a marriage. Only thought about

really big things turned out bring up stuff even when it's really tiny or small they would never let a small thing grow to be a medium thing and then eventually a big thing. The meeting will talk about is like, oh man. Can you close your mouth when you're chewing real quick? It's just like going to bother me right now and they do it in a way that sort of respectful. And so like when you're with your co-founders and you're in this really sensitive relationship and you're finding stuff that's being really troubling like you can communicate those needs really quickly and you will prevent

those small things becoming big things. the best way to start doing this is a practice so @yc, we call these level three conversations. So level one that informal conversation. We have other people were just like David exchange passing information back and forth level two conversation had some emotions talk about some things that are personal level three conversations their relational. They're engaged with something that's happening right now between two people that is super super important. It is a deep dive into

What it might be really troubling what might be really matter to two people in a start-up. There's a lot of things that's going to matter to all of the people working on the company. So let's go through some examples of things that you guys can do after this talk. Set goals some good ones are what are short-term goals for the company. You'd be surprised at how often people are not on the same page about this. Are we using the right metrics? We got lectures on those answers. I hope so by now and then

are we That's supposed to be hitting our goals that hiring our goals. Are we hitting our goals? Rolls, who's responsible one super sensitive, right? So is it clear who is responsible for what I just have that conversation. Do we agree that the current division makes the most sense? And this might be super simple answers. But if there is any kind of disagreement we want to cash that out in performance. Okay, so our workload distributed in an optimal manner today. Do we all

feel a high level of dedication and motivation right now great thing to just check on it every day. And then What mechanisms are in place for providing feedback to one another? That we carved out time for paying down emotional. Do we feel like we can have these level three conversations that anytime we have a process in place for thinking through the stuff so that we can be honest about where we are in our company. Play something's up how to work together everyone fights. So you want to make a plan? You need to figure out what

your attachment style. What's your rolls what your goals and a process before emotions get involved do it while you're sober. Use non-violent communication to share honest feedback without criticism and then pay down emotional debt on a regular basis. This is the most healthy way that you will make sure that things will not turn into a giant blow-up. You can start having hard conversations right now. There's no doubt in my mind that there's probably some issue that the two of you or three of

you or four of you or God forbid 7 of you are not talking about Thank you very much. All right. We're going to open it up to questions. Who wants to share their emotional problems? Yes. Right here when you hashtag. So yeah, but we're just wondering if it's too early to wrap up and put things on paper and let him sign so that there is no ambiguity in the future. I think I've asked what year was given to the question is you just had a co-founder that's left and then is it too late to do all the legal stuff you need to order things? I

haven't registered as a company then there's no shares to fight over technically. It's over only overworked the only legal thing. That might be tricky is that It was there an understanding that people are supposed to be paid for their work or not. But I take it there's no DLC no contract at all. That's the other thing that people sometimes run into issues with their co-founders is just like we've been working on this but we haven't been paying ourselves

and then when someone gets angry and left, they had been paying themselves minimum wage and then has a viable case for saying like, hey, I haven't been paid for the work. I've done I take it. There's been no contract sign it is not too early to go remedy all that so that you protect yourself. You definitely want to put things in place like dusting and clear understanding of the relationships among the founders and understanding like who owns Equity who's the CEO of Sony makes a decision so that way it will prevent future stuff from causing problems. So I just wanted to know how

you reconcile firing crafts with forming a good relationship. So as you build up the team, how do you reconcile firing fast versus building good relationships. So hopefully you will do everything you can to try to establish good relationships. They are some cases where if you've done all of these things and the person does not want to engage they don't want to communicate in a nonviolent way. They refuse to do the things that will prevent them and you basically noticed that there's all these conflicts with those four horsemen to me doesn't indications that like, hey this person we've

already talked about we had a plan for how to deal with this stuff and you're not sticking to the plan. And as far as I'm concerned, You're not meeting your end of the bargain and talk to me again. There's a balance. There's like you do all this stuff. Yes, but if it's not working out you need to move on because otherwise you affect other people in the team and the other morale. I've never talked to a Founder who actually fired someone that they're having problem with and then regretted it usually always like why did I do that? Sooner

the best advice I ever heard about this is from Max levchin, who's the founder of PayPal me basically says, like if there's doubt then there is no doubt the once you start feeling like there's something wrong. Basically not going to go away and now you're losing mental energy and chairs over the problem with that relationship over solving things to help the company grow and quite honestly, it's so hard to do a startup fighting a battle on multiple fronts mentally and emotionally is just like really really difficult and that's what used to eat a lot of startups. In the back

there. There are some pretty successful Founders who someone famous leave me alone. You know, if we are not people people so if that was one of your co-founders, how do I how do I do this? But avoid firing Steve Jobs the co-founder there's some people who are assholes famous assholes as Founders how to deal with that if that turns out to be one of my founder my co-founders and you have to decide together what kind of company that you want to run and so you together

have decided that it's okay for him to have that behavior. Then that's really on you to sort of deciding have that sort of compact. I'll tell you our feelings at YC. And so in the early days of y c PG kind of selfishly optimize the program for I am only going to fun people that I want to have dinner with every week cuz I got to spend a lot of time with these people. So he was like assholes and not because he thought that assholes can't found huge and companies like back in 2005 like Steve Jobs Bill Gates like those were

the role models for founder CEOs, but for him, he was optimizing for his time and energy and presents and the surprising side effect. Was that a room full of people who were lovely to have dinner with they help one another and they still found billion dollar companies and those people are really great community members inside of YC. It's one of the reasons why the IC network works out really well and they are good at hiring people bring people on getting people excited. They're easy to

get funding cuz investors want to work with them etcetera. And so for us we optimize did not have that experience with our Founders and we might leave some money on the table as a result, but because I will work with over. 100 new companies a year and I work with over a thousand almost 2,000 companies then the result is I build up his huge alumni face and I can't have a bunch of assholes in there that takes away attention from one another. So again, there's plenty of counter examples to people being good, but I would like to believe and what I would hope

for everyone is better schools that you can have it, that's different that you can believe that this is a much easier way to run a company then one run by dictatorship and fear. Just juice. Other than nail assholes, are there any other guardrails are best practices for delaying these rolls? Talk about it here. But like other people you want to spend a lot of time with kind of like what PG talked about and so why does things might indicate that a different ways it could be it's like, you know what this person isn't going to bother me. Is it going to be really needy and so I can spend a lot of

time with them? There's other people is like this guy is not very fun video games with me on our time off I can't do it this and so I really you're optimizing not just for like can I work on an idea for 10 years? But can I just spend a lot of time with this person for 10 years, you might think that that's connected asshole, but it might be completely different like your needs for your kind of relationship is very very different as a result. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. If you're going to assign them a portion of the company you're going to give them half

of the equity. Then you have to believe in them 100% that they are going to do. What's right for the company no matter what to make it easy for you to give up the equity or split the equity between the both of you. But if you don't trust your co-founder, then it will lead to things like you were micromanage them. You will worry about what they do with their time. You will spend a lot of time thinking about them instead of thinking about the business. So figure out how to find someone that you really really trust or they're going to tell you the kind of person that can let go and trust

someone and truly share the load because having a co-founder or bring own employees. It's really about being humble enough to say like I can't do this by myself. I need you and that kind of vulnerability is something that most people don't realize Why do people think that the way they attract of the co-founders is by saying is like I'm super fucking awesome and you're lucky to be on my bandwagon. Sceptre person. I want to be on but someone who says they like and I'm trying to make things happen and I think we can make the magic happen twice as fast as you were on my team. I've been so lucky

to have you on here. Do you want to join me? Such a different attitude? Right here. How do you suggest trialling these relationships like doing the dating before you get married do take them in his contractors first or what? Have you seen work? Will you start solo? So how do you trial out a relationship? Cuz like you don't like start a date by proposing to someone and so you don't immediately like get excited Isaac. Do you like blockchain? I like blockchain. You want to do you want to sign this clerky document together and join a 4

year vesting agreement with me? So one way as you talked about is that you might contract if you end up having money and you want to try out working with someone you can do that. So I'll good famous example was actually 37signals. So Jason freed hired David heinemeier Hansson off of a form and basically threw that relationship ended up finding a cup under I would recommend you start off with something like movie and whatever and so just do a project together. And so it might not be the ultimate thing that the company is, but maybe it's like if you already working on your

company, maybe there's some project that you want that involved. I would go you can have lots of other ships before that. So number one is like have a good conversation. Come and consistently have good conversations. Can we have disagreements about ideas? Can we discover something new or more interesting as a result of us interacting do we make each other better? Well-thought-out placating to one another so like having a bunch of conversation was a good one and then exchanging of favors. So maybe the other person has some other ideas and you have some ideas and two right now,

you're not the one of your quite ready to give up. I'm going over to see it working on. I would exchange favors and take turns working on each other stuff and get a sense for like, oh does this person keep their promises? Do they work really hard today? Do things that I'm not good at do they complement me Etc. There's so many little things in your interactions that you're basically trying to basically build a working. Small relationship. I think you could start the conversation would be like, hey, I think you might be a good co-founder. Can we start doing all this other stuff? I

feel like that's a little bored but is right on it seem to have his like look. I was just being honest with you. I'm looking for a co-founder. You might fit the bill. Let's start doing a couple little things together and spending more time increasing what they should put time on the calendar and see what happens. I think this happened with Tracy. She's got a podcast. She's the founder of planned grid talks about how she had to staining a Google calendar invite with her potential co-founder and it would just spend a couple hours every week just brainstorming. They just thought like we

have a lot of potential between a does. Let's just like talk about it is on a regular basis and see if we come up with anything all the enough what actually started the company office that the person she was dating at the time. She had like given Google Calendar access like that was at that modern step in a relationship and he was like a recurring appointment with this guy that's happening for several hours every week. What's the what's going on with that? And she's like we're trying to think through some ideas for this and turns out it's like building basically a way of doing construction

documents and he was like, what's wrong with you Tracy don't you know, I'm an iOS engineer. Why have you talked to me about it? And that's how they got started. White actor for strengthening open relationship while working remotely for the team. How do you strengthen these relationship really interesting? I talked a little bit about this with Mike newbies ahead. The one of the founders of zapier YC podcast with basically when you're going remote, there's a lot of things that you have to now to up

front in terms of your communication and relationship-building that you took for granted when you just work in a building with someone else. So number one is like trust has to be really high going to be really really clear about like what we're doing what is shipping what's being done and making sure everyone understands that everyone is on the same page you have to overshare and that something. A lot of companies when they're just working together in the same space get to not have to practice very, well. It just kind of naturally sort of happens in discussion the remote working you basically

have to plan it you have to deliberately do this sort of action. Secondly, you have to be very very good at communication until you actually get really good at saying like hey, I have a problem. I have an issue etcetera. But also you have to be really good at giving people the benefit of the down like the people you bring on for real working. You have to trust them cuz they're working from home. You can't see them. It's like by default. Your relationship with other remote worker is that I trust you that I can't see you but you're going to still do what's best for the company and

that's such a powerful feeling to have that you don't realize that you take it for granted when you just work with someone inside of a building. Immediately changes when you see the person leave and you're like are they even here are they even doing anything at cetera? So to me for remote working all the stuff that you have to do to State all the stuff ahead of time. You actually are the only way that you'll be successful at remote working until I actually think is more that if you're working in an office all together, what are the things you have to be cognizant that you are

being lazy about right that a remote working team is going to be ahead of you want. And a lot of that is communication transparency and Trust. Yes. This is great advice. I thinking comes up as prevention. What about if you actually going to complicate ride Escalade you have any tips to prevent. So what if you're currently going through a complex right? Now, how do you deescalate the problem? So the first thing is someone has to like recognizes like we are fighting in an unproductive why

we have to declare and we have to have everyone sort of agree that were on the same page that like this isn't working. I'll give you a tip that we use in our company and so and it had more to do with productivity, but it ended up resolving a lot of surf complex and so a true through we basically were like look, We hated meetings will remote company and we are dedicating one day out of everyone's work week to customer support and then we pushed all the meetings for the company to half day on Friday. So there for Friday was a

half day and one day was support so you really had Engineers having three solid days to do work, but we fully believe that three solid days and uninterrupted work is far more productive than someone pretending to work for 40 hours for the week. Like we don't interrupt etcetera. And so for that to be effective, we instituted a policy at the 15-minute discussion policy. So basically it says like any person could immediately table a discussion if it's gone for 15 minutes after hits 15 minutes, you're allowed to say like hey, you know what? Let's just put this away and

we'll discuss it at the Friday meeting and we'll move on to the other items on the to-do list. So if you had got into some kind of think that sucks you should have enough things on your plate that you can just move on and that you were not going to be stuck by one person. The result of this policy was that people usually sleep on it and the next day they were just magically be like, oh, you know what I figure something else out or like that's not a big issue anymore. I don't care that much. I got some plate and then we get to Friday to try to figure out what are all the on resolve issues.

There's almost be nothing that we have to talk about cuz usually allowing people to have a. Of time to cool off and think differently about the problem and realize like oh There's got to be a better way to work together. Big huge difference but I'd say for you. The first thing is someone has to admit that like this isn't working. Well, we need to change this process and part of this process might be like we go through the steps that I've talked about and set my worst case scenario is like you do couples counseling. So this is a common thing in the Bay Area was

super-rare in the early days of y c and now it's become way more comment for co-founders to go together and have some kind of intermediary who would help kind of disgust all the sort of negative things that are going on in the relationship and help them sort of see one another and realize that like, hey, you still have shared values and Mission she's approached it and then there's got to be a way that both of you can get what you need whether it's taking turns or make an agreement or making a concession that rock. A question rare

do I think people can change their attachment style overtime? I would like to think so I'd like to think that people will eventually become secure and not I would say my attachment style is definitely avoidant dismissive that usually is my first thing is just like someone tells you there's a problem like know there's no problem. It's going to be okay, it's fine. We're Champions that's not get into it just now and then over time I've realized that's what I do and I work really hard to be like, okay. My instinct is the one to sleep on this

right now. Can you honor that for me? And then we will definitely discuss it tomorrow morning and work on it. And so I wouldn't say that that's what I'm getting to the secure part. But at least I'm doing it in a way that like I recognize my weaknesses and so we get to the point where it's like, oh, you know what I don't need to sleep on it. I can figure out things. Rationally between the two of us right now. That's the goal. Okay. Thank you very much. You guys mango.

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