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How to Tax the Digital Economy | DAVOS 2020

Stephen Carroll
Senior Business Editor at France 24
+ 4 speakers
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World Economic Forum 2020
January 23, 2020, Davos, Switzerland
World Economic Forum 2020
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How to Tax the Digital Economy | DAVOS 2020
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About speakers

Stephen Carroll
Senior Business Editor at France 24
Katharina Pistor
Edwin B. Parker Professor of Comparative Law at Columbia Law School
Angel Gurría
Secretary-General at Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)
Bruno Le Maire
Minister of Economy and Finance at Ministry of Economy and Finance of France
Delia Ferreira Rubio
Chair at Transparency International

Studies in Law, UCD and Université de Paris Nanterre; Master's in Comparative Politics, London School of Economics. Formerly: worked as a reporter, producer and editor at broadcasters including Sky News, the BBC and RTÉ. Currently, Senior Business Editor, France 24; edits and presents business programmes.

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1988, Law degree (Hons), University of Freiburg; 1989, LLM (Hons), University of London; 1992, Assessor (Hons), State of Hamburg, Germany; 1994, MPA, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University; 1998, JD (Hons), University of Munich, Faculty of Law. 1993-95, Senior Research Fellow, Central European University Privatization Project; 1995-98, Research Associate, Harvard Institute for International Development; 1994-95 and 1998-99, Lecturer on Law, Harvard Law School; 1998-99, Research Associate, Max Planck Institute for Comparative and International Private Law, Hamburg; 2000-01, Assistant Professor for Public Policy, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. With Columbia Law School: 2001-04, Associate Professor of Law; since 2005, Professor of Law; 2008-2017, Michael I. Sovern Professor of Law; since 2017 Edwin B. Parker Prof of Comparative Law.

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Graduate, School of Economics, National Autonomous University of Mexico; Master's in Development Finance, Leeds University, UK. Formerly, President and Chief Executive Officer: Bancomext, the National Bank of Foreign Trade; Nafinsa, the National Development Bank, Mexico. 1989, Deputy Minister for International Affairs, Ministry of Finance; headed negotiating team which renegotiated Mexico's external public debt; co-chaired financial affairs team for NAFTA; 1994, Secretary for International Affairs, PRI; 1994-97, Minister of Foreign Affairs; 1998-2000, Minister of Finance; 2000-06, member of several private business boards and advisory boards; active in non-profit organizations; since 2006, Secretary-General, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Member of the Board of Trustees, World Economic Forum.

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1992, Agrégation in Letters; graduate, École Normale Supérieure and École Nationale d'Administration. 2002-04, Adviser to the Minister of Foreign Affairs; 2004-05, Adviser to the Minister of the Interior; 2005-06, Adviser to the Prime Minister; 2006-08, Principal Private Secretary to the Prime Minister. Since 2007, Member of Parliament, Department of Eure; since 2008, Member of the Finance Commission, special rapporteur on public health security on behalf of the Finance Commission, Town Councillor, Evreux (Eure); 2008-09, Minister of State attached to the Minister of Foreign and European Affairs, responsible for European Affairs; since 2008, Political Adviser, UMP. 2009-12, Minister of Agriculture, Food, Fishing, Rural Affairs and Spatial Planning of France. 2012-17, Member of the National Assembly; since May 2017, Minister of Economy and Finance of France. Author of publications, including: "Des hommes d'État" (2007); "Le Ministre" (2004); "Sans mémoire, le présent se vide" (2010); "Nourrir la planète". Recipient, Edgard Faure prize for publication "Des hommes d'État" (2008).

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PhD in Law. Expert on and has widely consulted on anti-corruption and transparency related issues with international organizations and NGOs. Has worked on projects promoting greater transparency and accountability in the areas of political campaign and party financing. Currently Chair of Transparency International. Has served as chief adviser to several representatives and senators at national congressed, advised the Constitutional Committee of the House of Representatives and Senate in the United States. Author of numerous publications, including on democratic culture and political institutions, comparative politics, government by decree, public and parliamentary ethics, political financing and electoral systems.

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About the talk

With estimates of trillions of dollars held offshore in corporate tax havens, 135 countries are debating proposals to address the tax challenges posed by a global economy that is increasingly digitalized. How can policy-makers and businesses work together to modernize the rules and ensure countries get their fair share of tax revenue?

This session was developed in partnership with France 24.

Speakers: Stephen Carroll, Katharina Pistor, Angel Gurría, Bruno Le Maire, Delia Ferreira Rubio

The World Economic Forum is the International Organization for Public-Private Cooperation. The Forum engages the foremost political, business, cultural and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas. We believe that progress happens by bringing together people from all walks of life who have the drive and the influence to make positive change.

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I have to say that unfortunately one of the most powerful organizations law firms and consulting firms are of was helping multinationals to avoid taxes and we know that the borderline translation of taxes instead of Florida not participating in that I think just because especially white collar business shouldn't stop us from thinking about those incorruption terms as well to Davos in this special debates from the world economic Forum on fronts ready for we're here today talking about a problem receive government lose hundreds of billions of dollars in tax revenues. Every year

through is Ryan taxing multinational companies are almost a hundred years old on the rise of digital Giants have made it more difficult for countries to get their fair share in taxation. So kind of new Global agreement be fined on taxes without starting a trade War to discuss this on joined here today by Catherine professor of comparative Columbia. New York from France the French Finance Minister Bruno the mayor of the organization for economic cooperation development on how Korea on some Transparency International. Thank you all very much for joining us

to start with you. Your organization has put forward a plan and you plan to tax this area to talk with a difficult issue that has two parts when will change the taxation for digital forensics the other corporate tax rate for companies around the world. This is not a problem that needed to be tacos for quite a while. What makes you think that this time can conceive before? This is a planet where a hundred and thirty-seven countries are involved which means that the ownership and the the

shores of the ideas and the source of the initiatives are from the country's themselves is not just at the oecd is putting forth a proposal to be discussed. And the other question is that although the issue has been on the table for quite a while the world and organizes itself around a few of the concepts that are fundamental here in order to address them and last but not least the question of digitalization of the world economy is happening more and

more and more of this is not about digital companies, please let's be clear. This is not about the countries of the companies of any one particular country. This is about The process of digitalization where if you're a finance minister, you see the base shrinking because digital is all over the place and happening more and more and more and the question is how do you address? A new set of rules. How do you establish new rules of the game to deal with this new reality? We're before you one of the key rules was for

example that you have to have a physical presence in the market right. Now. You can be anywhere in the world doing billions and billions of business in a particular location of particular country in a particular City and you never even standing there or stop by. These are the kinds of things we used to have things like transfer transfer payments in the arm slings principles and things like that to apply to the what I would call the more traditional type of economy the new economy the digital economy requires there for that. We establish

new rules in order to avoid what you very aptly described hundreds of billions of dollars being either not paid or they bested or simply ignored and I would say legally Anyway, because effectively that the companies are simply seeking to see where they have the lowest taxation jurisdiction. So we just have to put this is so exciting about digital. So exciting about technology Etc. But this is one of the consequences that we have to face in order to update and upgrade our International taxation system

legal this is because these companies are using laws that exist at to arrange their tax Affairs if they send a corruption issue for you give me the transparency of stuff is not to corrupt organization cases is legal. In other cases is really and clearly an avoidance of tax pain and it in many cases has to do with shell companies or Offshore is that in this digital economy? We shall assign the taksim rides. This is the question who is entitled to to put the taxes or to receive the taxes in the country who are the companies are located or the companies

that are the country square that users and the consumers are using the services and creating the value. And of course, this is not just taxation. This is a global issue. It has to do with sustainability. It has to do with good government to do also with fairness in the global economy. And of course transparency is a key principle on that so We are working hard in this real because it's connected with all the other topics that Transparency International is already

working Sunday speakers companies are structure that allow them to be able to do that is tackling the tax issue the most pressing way to a draft of a broader Highway trade companies. Important one because many companies organized themselves around tax issues. And unfortunately, I ideally they shouldn't be doing this I should be doing this around business taxes, but it's a very common thing and I just want to come back to the question of corruption. You know, what is legal in? What is it illegal to disclose the flying lion and Safari blurred line and

because no tax code can ever be water types of interpreting and we're trying to find ways around and I have to say that unfortunately one of the most powerful organizations law firms and consulting firms are of God's helping multinationals to avoid taxes and we know that the Borderlands revision of taxes episode of Florida, not participating in that and I don't think just because I'm especially white collar business should not stop us from thinking about those in corruption turns as well. I bring the marry your government put in place a tax on digital company's revenues

of large digital companies and last year United suspended payments of those tax under pressure from the United States for those companies ever ask me to pay this tax. Digital companies in France will pay the do taxes in 2020 and I want to be very clear on that. We wear the first country to introduce a digital taxation in 2019 explained before we see that there is a loophole in the international taxation system. The loophole is digital activities. The biggest companies of the

world are making huge profits with meaning of consumers in territories where they do not pay that do taxes. Nobody connection. And we will never give up. Let's be clear we have decided to introduce a fair taxation at the national level. Retirement age in 2019. We have just given some time to have an international solution at the oecd on the basis of the excellent work done by the OCD people. I think that will hold of you that it is far more preferable to have one single International solution for a fair and

efficient taxation of digital activities instead of having many national taxations order for the word, especially in Europe or digital companies of either the oecd station will have to pay but we want to give it a chance to this International solution. So we have an agreement with Stephen minutes left in the process of defining the business at University and I think that it is far better for all of us to have the International Space Station at UCD with the view of funding. Compromise agreements by the end of 2020 instead of entering into a trade war between the United

States and Europe because the trade War would have to first flow don't enroll and then it would mean the end of the international negotiation the end of international solution for both digital Taxation and minimum taxation. I really think that we have old to give it strength to this International negotiation. We are united in Europe and I hope that by the end of 2020 we would get this new international taxation system. What's a lot of pressure on you and your organization to get everyone on board for this? We know that the United States

have issues with the oecd plan. Are you optimistic 2020 results? Indeed we are on track. This is something that people have to know this is not something that started yesterday. And this is certainly not because of this flare-up that there was it sometime I read yesterday and one of the newspapers that it was also a conversation with the UK and the United States and we know that they've been exchanges with a Italy with Spain with turkey. Why because they're more than 40 countries today that are participating

in this International effort to put a deal together that are ready to go out on their own as Bruno. The marriage is suggested if there isn't an international solution, and therefore what you will have is not only a diversity you were a real cacophony of different ways of interpreting and in different ways of Realizing how it is that the company should be paying their taxes how much you know, how much pain do societies feel that they have to inflict on

Who Wants to be more promotional who wants to be attractive there. So you will have this competition about this desirable and everybody's trying to avoid that I have to say there is a, this this expression that you've heard from the French Minister of Finance is shared widely by the hundred thirty-seven, but the question is, of course a hundred 3737 opinions. Are we on track? Yes, we've been working on this particular issue digital for more than 2 to 3 years. Now. We

are on track next week. Actually there would be a discussion at the oecd where all the elements are going to be put in place the idea is that by June or July we will have all the numbers that are required and that in the second half of 2020 we go for a funeral for implementation. Is this going to be to be on board? We need everybody to be on board 137 to be on board. But what is really very important for the audience to know is that they have all been able to shelve or put aside their differences in the for the benefit of a

common solution this tubular solutions that you mentioned at the beginning excetera or is shared and it was the result of the work of 137 countries Telugu New Year. Do you know when it's not supplant signs grey sounds like you know, it could solve a very complicated problem. Do you have faith that these you know agreement even if it is reached is going to be a Playa. In a way that is a strong fire to the organization would like because we are talking about the rules and agree completely. The rules should be Grove and we have a problem here honey Festival

2020 of the weather going to be for Easter stressing stakeholder capitalism, which means Collective action. We cannot solve this country by country because it will create a lot of problems a double taxation Princeton. So this sucks competition to go into the lower part of the scheme. So we need this comprehensive solution. But once we have the rules, the rules should be implemented and there we have another problem. So the route should be absolutely clear. They work boa CD has done and you have been very open in order

to allow participation openly form for many stockholders, and that's very good and that they work done. No offer or principles are not supposed to your rules in order to be properly implemented, but then it will be at the task of each of the agencies in the country to really put this with transparency at the very first principal because we not we need to know where companies are providing their statuses. Where are the Consumer Square is the creation of

value. And once we know that we want to know who is paying taxes and how many taxes they are suppressors illegal structures available to companies is not going to be tomorrow. You think it would be enforceable text Rose will be enforceable in Tequesta. Not only off the capacity of tax authorities in different countries, but also if the willingness of the companies to share that information with the rest because we have to know where the Raised up basically that the

value that that which wine to tax and I think there can be a lot of disputes and I realize that I have lots of thoughts about an arbitration tribunal to resolve this dispute. I would like to know more about that. I would like to know who is sitting on this application to do you know who can appoint the Arbutus and and how this will be enforced and one thought I Just Had Sex Twitter SMS catechol thought it was the amount of disputes that could be about what is the residual checks process that shall be taxed. What is the right threshold all kinds of issues that will be raised

the companies have a lot of resources that can bring a lot of disputes to arbitration. And the question is how many countries will have the time and resources to go through these kind of disputes to make sure that they can really collect the tax guy. So I I'm so nervous about the implementation phase II with all due respect to what has been achieved. What concern arbitration is a big one? You know, I just got rid of things to come see some fusion sources to challenge. The art word is crucial.

However What you have thought? That in 2019 actually. Slept here already 50 million bank accounts have been revealed and they're all in the desks of the tax men and women of the different authorities in the world and that they are worth the 50 million bank accounts. They're worth 5 trillion Euros, which is about a third of the US economy and they're already about a hundred and two billion billion euros back taxes and you don't find some things that have been paid by the people who have

gotten to the conclusion that there's nowhere to hide that you just have to pay the taxes because your name is already on the tax man or woman's desk and they're going to call you and buy you a cup of tea and they're going to say well, you know, we got to wait there's an Did she hear? Okay. Pepin just under hood 34 years ago, it's happening as we speak the same thing that you have already been enacted and they're moving forward this about 250 billion per year that the companies are not paying. So we're going to see how

we make inroads into that the rules for that have already been in place. What is missing. The digital taxation because of the complexity because it's moving so fast all the time and because you needed the you needed the consensus know what's happened. In the meantime, you know, what happened in the meantime was we had a very big tax reform in the US and therefore that allowed for the consensus to join everybody else in the world that have been for years trying to get Like this, so yes, we believe it's possible. We believe

that the conditions are ripe today to be able to succeed. Okay. We're going back in time at 4 a.m. In Dallas. Adderall enjoying the news headlines today Okay. If you want to join us. Welcome back to the France 24 to base from the world economic Forum in Davos. We're discussing the challenge of hypotonic digital companies and Bruno. We're talking about a new rule about the in this area of your country wants breast with a 3% that levy on digital revenues for large companies in this

area experience. You've had the response to the United States. Is this a cautionary tale for any country that wants to go ahead with eyes. They're being an international framework. Once again, that's it for everybody. Otherwise, once again with the UK Jenny Spain Austria many countries introducing their own National taxation. I just want to record and satisfying the current situation is to be releasing the biggest to our list taxes you pay That's the current situation

that just because you are digital companies. You do not have any physical prisms so you don't pay 50 6065 consumers in France, but you do not have any physical presence. Would you don't pay any tax or a very limited amount of Taxation that's not accepted. Do we have introduced or on taxation system and I think it's interesting to enter into some details different system is a very simple one is simple Performance Academy point of view. We can do better.

All national taxation is based on the turnover. If you have a ton of her vulva 750 million euros you have to pay or national taxation at deliver to 3% But having no taxation until November cannot be satisfying from an economic point of you being something different and that's exactly what we want to do during do you have 20/20 on the basis of the Year extremely good job made by HED by and by Pascal siakam The world that has been done on the ocean 11 is based on the level of profits. And of course is better to tax profits weather to text to turn over. Then you have to define the

parameters of the taxation. The business would be the profits. If you make over profits super profits, you need to be taxed. You have to be fun to live it up super profit percentage 15% to 20% We going to have a very long debate about that and you could be at the negotiation to Define this level. You need to introduce some parameters to know exactly how you are doing business in one country and how you're doing profits in one country. You can take for example, the number of consumers buy me one very interesting parameter. You can take the

level of your expenses for advertising or marketing can be a second parameter and then you have to defy. The threshold 10 / 10 for instance on the basis of the Prophet you are making and the willingness point of these blue board framework while working on these tax certainty Turkey Point for many countries to be sure that this is something and sodium assistant avocado body to private companies could be sure that there is stuck certainty and they won't be changes over the world every six months or every year. I just want through this

presentation of the year. We see the solution to insist on the fact that everything is on the table. We just have to decide if we want to avoid either hole in international taxation system or many national solutions that could be detrimental for all of us. We have everything of the table just decide just Pictures of your government's strategy by going ahead with tax before there was a plan. You must have expected that the US were going to me. Where that there is a problem. Everybody must be aware that we can go any longer

without taxation system in which the richest companies those were making the most important prophets after being less taxes. So I'm very happy to see that today in divorce. That's one of the key issue and I think the front has been successful in putting this question of fairness in international taxation system at the court of international debate. That's the success of France and that's the success of prism and 30 bringing United States to the to the oecd table out of where is also the goal of having to dispute the Francis top of the United States.

They've been they've been on the table all the time. They've been reservation. There's something that you have to understand which is it really at the root of what Bruno Le maire just mentioned the man on the street when you're talking about the transparency question, you know is this is the man on the streets the middle class is captive. In fact there their taxes are you know taken away even before they get their paycheck and not date certainly find out that the richest men and

women in the world paid very little taxes and they have them are you doing this to Downton in some strange place in the world in the same for companies this small and medium-sized companies are there. Their captive within their borders they have to pay 25 for the 8:30 35% whatever the touch is and now they find out that the biggest companies in the world 0.02% which is a very nice low rate that digital accompanies excetera. Basically, there's a very deeply rooted political issue here. It has to do with the question of trust, which is one of the biggest

casualties of the crisis that we have had to hear there was a casualty of growth it was a casualty of jobs, but there was a casualty of inequalities but there was a great deal of trust and if people feel that I have to pay in the big guys don't have to pay in the small companies have to be in the big guys don't have to pay obviously that produces the people, you know, if any Going out in the street in protest against saying I don't like what I have to do then is there a race that they say is a group of Rich Nations getting together coming up with a plan that is going to leave

developing countries unable to compete in different ways of a Woods at 4, you know, and that's the point. We are not here talking dust off the consumers and users of France UK or the big countries that developed countries that which country is. What does the name you can we are talking about underdeveloped countries who are users are located are connected fortunately digital economy in this world. It's not only that section the problem. We have a political problem

and the survey Nyan Cat Hey, we citizens on our data transfer enrollment. For these big companies which are using our data free me to create algorithms and artificial intelligence and machine learning and in our country's we are not receiving the taxes that should be used in order to solve the problem and the developed countries. So princess if we talk about sustainability of the concept that is very highlighted in their money. Dspg the sustainable development goals set.

We have to solve the problem of Water Sanitation for Verdi climate change and he's going to do that. If they don't get the taxes that has to do with the activities performed in their Camp is not physically present, but we only has to do with uses and consumers in countries creating value. So this is something that has to do with fairness off the global governance and I I would really be very happy that the result of this is not that finally consumers and users are paying the taxes for the beat up because in some countries that is what is going to happen or it's already

happening in the in some underdeveloped. Having another conversation happening at in the United States to buy regulation Big Tymers. How many fights the world? I think it's one of them and I think that would I would I would like to add to the conversation he is I think we can think about the big tech companies actually texting consumers. So in some ways consumers that double text companies are basically harvesting the data on the Roy information that we all produce for free and then I using them in monetizing them and in making the money off that and

then are not paying taxes to the countries where these very consumers lift including actually the United States from any of the pic big tech companies resides because I got a big tax break there as well. So I think one way to get them under control to some extent I think is to impose taxes wherever they are and wherever they are active. And did you do companies will be taxed under the French national law because we have to decide to postpone the prepayment of April

to December give some time. But in any case digital companies will have to pay I would really prefer to have a taxation under international law and if we are successful it will be under International low, but if we fail we will come back to the National solution and I appreciate what has just been Sade understand when you are making profits in one country either a different one or developing one. You should pay your taxes in that country. So there is a problem with digital taxation, but there is also

a very important issue which is minimum Taxation and nouns and specific point where I exactly the same line with the US. Ethical issue because when you are single citizen a 2000 shoes at a month with you and your family you have to pay you do taxes in France and you have no authority to put your earnings Road in fiscal. You do not have the choice. You must pay you and you text and I don't know why I was citizen would be obliged to pay your taxes in Auto tree and the company's could withdraw their profits put them in another country to pay less taxes and

the response to the problem which is tax evasion is minimum Taxation and under very specific point, which is the second Peter of this way Foundation of international taxation system. I really think that we are close to an agreement and it would be a total game-changer if we can prove to the city. Everybody would have to pay a minimum level of Taxation and that this would be the end of tax evasion and in your hair cutting with their American counterparts that we know you've been having plenty of this week. It's the

US are very much interested in introducing a minimum Taxation and international leather because they suffer or so from tax evasion and I've always made clear that this is a package if you want me to unpack station. We also need digital taxation Justin Bieber weekly on minimum taxation. We propose the French government proposed a liver of 12.5% today. You have very important companies making huge profits in France withdrawing the profits from France and paying Living of corporate tax between 2 and 4% I don't

want to hold the country but everybody knows which country am thinking of if we have a level of Minion taxation of 12.5% It means that France could have ten point of revenues of Taxation coming back to the public good in France and to The French Connection has conveniently. 12 and a half percent is also the minimum the lowest corporate tax rate in the European Union, which is in Ireland. By the way, I am a friend of all the member states of the EU but is not the future I want

for you and Arlen had signed up to participate in this process. And by the way, 12 and a half percent is not the lowest in the European Union. There is at least show couple of others is because it's a little higher than 0.028 Level Playing Field. This is why this is so important the idea of a minimum tax in this. I mean, the corporate taxation is normally 25 Or opposed to one or 2% or the two to 4%. Bruno was mentioning then obviously 12 and a half percent would seem to be

a, buffer a minimum and protection but it gives certainty Ultra why would companies, you know, go for 12 and a half percent when today they are paying 110 or do or 4% because the one day if they're caught by Nero Margaret forsaken or whatever they're called in and they say you owe me $14. That the type of the incident over with no longer be possible. In fact, it's no longer possible today. I have to say because all the the double Irish on the double dutch in the double digits. Are there in Alaska have been dismantled in the process of transparency, but It in crate certainty on this is

something which which eventually alluded to a moment ago companies are planning for the next 5 for the next 10 for the next 20 years and their certainty for them is a very crucial issue. Now. I also remember from the point of view of developing countries, which Delia was mentioning. I remember we were occrra. It was a meeting about development and suddenly Trevor Manuel then the minister of finance of South Africa. How do you spell Aid and everybody else

Dax me started like a Revival there, you know. And because it was about domestic results mobilization. So this is true for the developed countries in the shelter 2 for the development and we hide from the audience for you today. If you don't mind do you think there should be 1960s Fairfax Station? If you look at the agenda 2030 with all the development goals, I think we have enough there to make this real and working because it has to do with good governance. It has to do with Collective

action if it has to do with anti corruption and rule of law. So if you have all that in place, you don't need an SVG 18 or 19 by everybody. This is not a problem just for Europe or North America. This is the problem for the whole world and which have the tools if we have the commitment of all stakeholders and I would stress a scattering was mentioning the role of Gatekeepers here helping in many cases to avoid taxes or to facilitate Aviation and we have to have Gatekeepers on board. Not only

in terms of Taxation fairness, but in terms of transparency and anti-corruption beneficial owners transparency, and if you see the last candle of the Dos Santos Fortune the principal actor in this big Scandal of grand corruption argate another point being raised by another member of our audience here is you know, should we be holding the big accounting firms responsible in this is why island dressing High lady business? I'm going to take until neither was

recently a case where a major lawyer was accused in a criminal Tribunal for aiding and tax evasion evasion. And that's where it's very rare that Laura's having accused both accounting from some lawyers have to do some soul-searching hereinafter. Think about you know, how how far is it from her father going off all they're pushing the limits of existing rules and I think I would like to emphasize again. The rules will never be watertight. It sometimes really questioned whether you want to enforce the spirit of the rules and advise your clients to live with in the spirit of the world or

whether you try to evade the Spirit by looking at the formula ways to albatross around another question here is saying that not so taxation is not the solution in the end taxes paying consumers. How do we incentivize tech companies to pay Demetri incentivizing companies pay this text? I don't believe neither in the optional taxation. Noah in the incentives to pay a tax is the tax. And you have to pay it and the water the government is to be sure that's two companies pay

the new taxes. So it's up to us to define the word that must be as simple as possible simple beef are there must be transparent system and that's exactly what we are working on but that I need to have an option of Taxation. I I do not know any single private company that would opt for a taxation instead of non-taxation. How do we find if a solution that doesn't only apply to US base companies the scope of a lot of things are the matches that we've heard, you know, for example, the French measure it shows cops are mostly

us companies. It you know, will this plan discriminate against any particular country? This is about countries above a certain threshold of business like the France instituted. It was about impact the European directive that eventually was not approve but it was very much along the same lines. So the idea of capturing companies that go above a certain threshold of business. Is there all the time you don't capture it everybody and second. It's not only with the minimum with the minimum. This is by

the way of french-german proposal the minimum tax idea, you know, I have to give him In fairness to through the source of the proposal and this will capture not only digital companies it would come to anybody. Who does more business in X, you know because the principal is fairly straightforward as principal. Where should you pay taxes when you pay taxes where you do the business and where you generate the prophets now, let me quote a classic here. Okay, we were in the

G20 in St. Petersburg. And she said if we are successful this will be the greatest ever revolution in the international tax regime that we have seen in 100 years now the Russian Revolution you believe you're having licenses to Patient follow the issue will 2020 be the year that you think they'll be a deal done. I hope so. I'm a little bit skeptical because I think that's multilateralism and Corporation at International level has been deteriorating over the last few years and there's some turn

around that we seeing I hope that will materialize but I think maybe this would quit and still even more often isn't for another round of multilateralism in the future even in traits. Not only in time at Brenden Tamara. I'm not going to ask you if you think cuz I know that you're optimistic about it. Why do you think you can achieve that for the end of 20 20 20 20 eye what to get that just say. I think that we should be aware of What is that stage behind this question of international taxation to question is to know what kind of world we want for the 21st century either the

fight against Nations ammo Corporation address key issues, like climate change new technologies taxation. We need more cooperation among nations. That's what he's behind us fight for a better International taxation system and the digital taxation system and I'm not optimistic an activity. So we put me to work very hard all the hundred thirty-seven countries in the next week and then in the months in between and then July excetera and we get it done. This is what we're going to be focusing on we have no plan B, we just get it done.

And we should be having this in 2012 headlines coming up.

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