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How to Turn Protest into Progress | DAVOS 2020

Craig Francourt
Global Shaper at Victoria Hub
+ 4 speakers
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World Economic Forum 2020
January 23, 2020, Davos, Switzerland
World Economic Forum 2020
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About speakers

Craig Francourt
Global Shaper at Victoria Hub
James Harding
Co-Founder and Editor at Tortoise Media Ltd
Alicia Bárcena Ibarra
Executive Secretary at United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC)
Micah White
Co-Creator at Occupy Wall Street
William Browder
Head at Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign

Craig is an independent consultant specialising in Environmental Communications and Equity and Inclusion. He is the Managing Director of CTF Consultancy, a Seychelles-based consulting firm that works with Government, charities and businesses to deliver services in PR and Communications, Workforce Training, Youth Civic Engagement and Social Impact Monitoring and Evaluation. Craig has worked across a range of educational settings, conveying messages to diverse and underrepresented groups on key issues, including: Climate Adaptation, Conservation and Democratic Engagement. He has combined his experience in Project Management, Communications and Human-Centred Design to innovate Leadership and Democratic Engagement programmes for young people. He has also designed and co-ordinated messaging strategies in the media for national charities, both in Europe and Africa. Born to Seychellois parents in the United Kingdom, Craig moved permanently to the Seychelles in 2016 to pursue his ambition of empowering under-served and marginalised communities in his home country. He is the Co-Founder of SeyIT.tv, a free edutainment video platform that provides diverse faces in Seychelles with voices on the issues that matter to them. As a participant of the pioneering Aldabra Clean-Up Project, Craig and 10 other volunteers from Seychelles and the University of Oxford cleared the remote Aldabra Atoll – a UNESCO World Heritage Site once described by Sir David Attenborough as ‘one of the world’s greate

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Degree in History, Trinity College, Cambridge. Formerly: Speechwriter, office of Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary; 1993-94, with Japan Unit, European Commission. With Financial Times: 1994, Corporate Reporter; 1996-99, Correspondent, China, opened Shanghai Bureau; 1999-2002, Media Editor; 2002-04, Bureau Chief, Washington. With The Times: 2006-07, Business and City Editor; 2007-12, Editor. Since August 2013, Director, BBC News and Current Affairs.

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Bachelor's in Biology and Master's in Public Administration, Harvard University; completed course work for a Master's in Ecology. Extensive experience in sustainable development includes posts with the United Nations Development Programme and the United Nations Environment Programme; consultancies with the Inter-American Development Bank; and senior positions in the Government of Mexico and in various non-profit organizations. Former: Deputy Chef de Cabinet and Chef de Cabinet of Secretary-General Kofi Annan; Undersecretary-General for Management, United Nations Headquarters; Deputy Executive Secretary and Director, Environment and Human Settlements Division, ECLAC. Since July 2008, Executive Secretary, United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (ECLAC).

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Activist who co-created Occupy Wall Street, a global social movement that spread to 82 countries, while Editor of Adbusters magazine. Author of “The End of Protest: A New Playbook for Revolution”. Co-Founder of Activist Graduate School, an online school taught by, and for, experienced activists. Twenty-year record of innovative activism, conceiving the debt forgiveness tactic used by the Rolling Jubilee and RIP Medical Debt, popularizing the critique of clicktivism and identifying the emerging trend of “social movement warfare".

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William Felix Browder is an American-born British financier and economist. He is the CEO and co-founder of Hermitage Capital Management, an investment fund that at one time was the largest foreign portfolio investor in Russia. After having business in Russia for ten years, Browder was refused entry to Russia in 2005 as a threat to national security; he has said it was because he exposed corruption.After the death in prison in 2009 of Sergei Magnitsky, a Russian accountant and auditor who had represented his company through power of attorney and conducted an investigation into massive tax fraud related to it, Browder lobbied for Congress to pass the Magnitsky Act, a law to punish Russian human rights violators, which was signed into law in 2012 by President Barack Obama. In 2013, both Magnitzky and Browder were tried in absentia in Russia for tax fraud Both men—Magnitsky had died four years prior—were convicted and sentenced to imprisonment. Interpol rejected Russian requests to arrest Browder, saying the case was political] In 2014, the European Parliament voted for sanctions against 30 Russians believed complicit in the Magnitsky case; this was the first time it had taken such action.In July 2017, Browder testified to the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee on Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election through use of persons in Washington, D.C.

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About the talk

Anti-government protests fuelled by anger about inequality, corruption and political repression are paralysing cities and nations. How can movements transition from protest to political change more effectively?

This session was developed in partnership with Tortoise Media.

Speakers: Speakers: Craig Francourt, James Harding, Alicia Bárcena Ibarra, Micah White, William F. Browder

The World Economic Forum is the International Organization for Public-Private Cooperation. The Forum engages the foremost political, business, cultural and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas. We believe that progress happens by bringing together people from all walks of life who have the drive and the influence to make positive change.

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These manifestations of social unrest, or actually, tremendous opportunities for social change. These are the times that these are, these are opportunities for social Evolution. They stay play a social evolutionary function, actually a lot. So, I think that the most important thing is to say and that there are also. So when they happen, it's important not to rush out and squash them, because we need that energy to channel into making great changes. In our society's, find the editor and founder of Toothless, which is a new news

company. We are a slow Newsroom, we will set up with the idea that there are plenty of other news services that can give you breaking news. We were interested in, what's driving the news. And it wouldn't fit in wealth identity and 100 Year life and perhaps the most exciting and interesting element in The Newsroom at this time. With that Outlook, is that it seems to me to fix with a very fundamental change. In our politics, when I grew up, 60% of people have some kind of identity why did find some way or another, with a political party

today that's about 30% and the energy. It seems to me. He has not disappeared before the sign. It's actually moved into a different kind of politics of politics. That is driven by cools. Is a politics that is out of my to buy activism of us here in this room. Look who in different ways. Count ourselves as activists. The aim is to try and fix, not just that we doing something with salves, your conscience but which actually have a concrete that the results. So, that is why we are extremely proud to feel very fortunate. I say,

how do I say, install something used to be working with the world economic forum and hosting this session. Looks like how we move from protest the ProPress. Now, the acute irony of this on our first outing is that as you would have noticed, it looks like we've moved from protest back to patriarchy. I don't think I somehow managed to land ourselves with full blokes on the panel. I'd like to say that that is unfortunately. One of the cruelties of Dallas on a Thursday afternoon or to move is going to be here in. Terrible food poisoning, showing us who is he has got

stuck while we will do to sustain ability and saving the planet in the traffic trying to get back into add apples. So this is a the snow report of our making. It was one of those things that the house was in the Stars. We have to go to happy solutions. To the problem is Craig, Franco to is a global shaper. I didn't realize what the requirements, but it seems being fast on your feet is one of them. Good trade with Dragoon, didn't hear about 20 minutes ago and I hope is going to give us a sensible activism in the Seychelles. Looks like it's really required. If I hope

for you to weigh in like we're supposed to have this idea that I actually sat quietly believe in panel discussions. We believe in hearing from everyone in the room. As many people as possible should speak in the course of the next 45 minutes. We would really like to draw on your experience and your point of view. So please don't feel. You have to ask a question way in with the thing that you think, tell us what your experiences tell us, tell us your point of view and do say so right from the start and if you can By the end of it, as a result of patriarchy program, by making sure that

moving and it's stood up and spoke and then we loved one. Not accuse Victory brought a small one. At least in this room. We have a great guy of people don't trust. Craig Bill Browder. Many of you will know that he started out to be but as a one-man protest movement to choke on a small force in the shape of that Amir Putin and the government of Russia. And after lunch, we'll explain to you. I know this will push himself had a concrete consequence for the way in which the US and in fact, the rest of

the world that would have used to power. Let's hear you are an absolute godsend. Lovely to see you. And thank you for joining us for many many years found Revolt coupon. Right? That's one of the world's best. Not just on the potential of activism what the limits are and how you actually make activism work. And then on the other side of this which is trying to work out, how you channel the energy of activism and make a concrete response. Legal response regulars responses are the consequences.

If you look back in the first decade or two of a century is actually the punctuation, mark II in the lost one this year, we are beginning the 21st century and honest. The first two decades. If you like we're. Where we resolved, what increase me feels like the Disposable Century. The Friendship Centre, when we've been through so much and covid-19 Resultant culture, even people, and this is an opportunity for us to think about how do we in the next decade channel, the energies that we've ghost, I make the work, I'm going to start if I met with Mike because Mike, I suppose you had the most

Vivid experience. Well if you like taking on the system and learning what you kind of cologne do, but I'd like to say please do while I don't wait for the end you got something to say just life in general, you straight away like a little bit about what you think about activism now. Find me a question. I just like situated, myself. Giving you some context about who I am. I start doing Atkins on his 13 years old. So, I am, I'm a lifelong activist. I was a young Anarchist. I've been arrested blocking traffic. I had this idea when I was young that I was going to become, it

sounds, it sounds strange but basically have the best activist pedigree ever. So I would just do everything. I went to Palestine need to direct action nonviolent with International solidarity movement before, Rachel Corrie was killed. I did piecework in Zimbabwe. I'm all these things before the age of 21. So, I just constantly, you know, when I was 17, I got National Television for doing activism the entire life has been a long string of activism and I've never actually worked in a non-active is a job. The only job I've actually had was an activist magazine so when I was 28, I was working for

is Madison call, Dad Busters, and we came up with this idea called Occupy Wall Street. We wrote an email, we design a poster, we gave it a name, we pick the date, we we outlined the tactics, we basically, you know, made the rules of the game. And we and we released it in the midst of the Arab, Spring in the uprisings that we're going on in Spain. The people in New York City grabbed onto it. And within three weeks of it, it's launched a global movement, spread to any two countries and cities do the result of that though, in a personal level is that when occupy was was crushed by Obama

and also governments around the world. They left me wondering, like how could it possibly have failed? You live here, I am an activist. The age of 13 from 13 to 28, I had believed that. If you could create something like Occupy Wall Street, you would get the change that you wanted. That was the whole story line of activism that had been raised under. And so when occupied was crushed them and when we didn't get what we wanted, I spent the next like, five or six years kind of thinking about theories of change and active and, and why, and they know why why didn't work. And I read a book called

the end of protest, so that there's a lot that we can dive into. But I I think that the main kind of conclusion and I like what you're saying about this, the century, New Century ending cycling, the book end of My thought was really that the dominant storyline of contemporary activism is broken that that this idea that we're going to create mass movements that put demands on our leaders and that these leaders are going to be forced to listen to us because of the myth. The represent of democracy is is fundamentally broken, but and this is what the new century is about. But we now know that

activists have a tremendous role to play because activists are the 1/4 that seem to have the mystical almost magical capacity to mobilize millions of people with with. So few resources, you would be amazed how inexpensive was to create Occupy Wall Street. So I think we're in this moment now. We're at least need activist, because actress was only supposed to force. That seem to know how to do this. Mobilization, and activists are now I'm needing a lease because at least hold the key to not squashing and Destroy any social protest. So, that's, that's a quick kind of capsule of where I find

myself now, The dominant storyline of activism contemporary is broken stats. Public pressure on elected representatives is is ineffective. What's the point of mulching? What's the point of writing in? What's the point of joining a movement is that broke protest? It was in 2003 when George Bush and Tony Blair, went to war, despite an unprecedented Global synchronize protest. There's never been a protest in human history. If you guys remember, February, 15th 2003 everywhere on Earth protest at the same time and what did Bush say, do you remember what he said was really? He said I don't

listen to focus groups of people around the world of the exact same time protesting. So I don't listen to focus groups. But what he, what he actually accomplished by doing that if he gave permission to every single Western Government and non-western government to break that social contract. And so, to answer your question, what if we know what does that mean about marching and stuff? I think one of the things that one of the insights is that you can do other behaviors, protests, throughout human history has taken many different forms. And I think right now, it is a mistake to to keep repeating

the marching but I can't imagine protest taking the form, for example, of planting trees. I think that the tree like planting trees of private plane tree campaign, could be conceived of as a kind of anarchist protest against are supported by a by at least. So I think it's about using the capacity of social mobilization, but also providing new Behavior. So the behaviors that that create the change. We want to make poke history which is if you want to make things happen, you first have to make things out of that. There's going to be something concrete about that

alarmingly. Actually, yes. When you thinking you are so just come listen to the news. Most the time I think of a protest as we're going to we're going to demonstrate until you do this concrete thing. And I thought the Occupy Movement did you want to confess that much? Cuz you used this very surprised that it has been crushed and some people would say and didn't have an agenda that was deliverable the beginning but it's completely insufficient, okay? It was called Occupy

Wall Street, the name itself and where it took place in financial district. With democracy movement, seems to imply that something to do about Wall Street influence on Democracy, but even more. So whether then rather than being kind of snide, I think it's more important to go back to a perfect example of a movement that did have a very clear to man, I already alluded to it the 2003 inside. So there's a lot of different theories of protest failure with the theory that protest fail because of lack of demand, is one of the most insufficient ones that exist because we have examples of very

clear demand. That also didn't say something. I should have said that this artifact in this session. As in the planet, we are in a Race Against Time and this little toaster. Some steroids is making her way across the screen. So when she gets to the end without the time so don't wait too long. So you wouldn't going to say, My name is Jenna Dewan at the same time, we've been up there, I'm a demon that has been one of them even since become the leading example and

suggests that should have made it as a I would like you to a New Direction, wipe out this paper and become bikes that have to pay for divorce. Spell will you when you just hollering out of some of you would have read his book when if you haven't you can leave now and get it. So I'm probably the least likely person to ever had become an activist. I was a hedge fund manager and now I'm a full-time human rights activists in a collection of one way in which this happened was that I was the Iran. The largest investment Fund in Russia.

Dams. As many of you know Russia is a corrupt country in so everybody was stealing from all the companies I was investing in and so I decided that I was going to. As a fund manager, I was going to research how they did the stealing and then it's supposed to the international media which I did and as you can imagine the people who were stealing didn't like that so much and I was expelled from Russia. My offices were raided and then my young lawyer who work for me, a guy named Sergei magnitsky who is 35 of the time I stepped in to help me. And in the

process, he discovered that the reason for the office trade was to commit a massive fraud, committed by government officials to steal 230 million dollars in taxes. That we paid. As a young lawyer Patriot, he expose the government fraud testified against some of the officials involved and he was subsequently arrested by the same officials. He testified against putting pretrial detention tortured for 358 days in pre-trial, detention and killed on the night of November 16th, 2009 by a tribe guards with rubber batons, to beat them to death.

And by the morning of the morning, he was killed on the 16th of November. I got the news on the 17th of November and it was the most heartbreaking, life-changing demoralizing, upsetting news. So I could have ever gotten. He was killed effectively as my proxy, he was killed in my place and he would still be alive today if he hadn't worked for me, I'm so I made a decision on that moment in time to put aside all my business activities and devote, all of my time, all of my resources and all of my energy is going after the people who killed him to make sure they faced Justice. Equally

in Russia was there was no possibility of getting dressed as whatsoever inside of Russia. Vladimir Putin. Personally got involved and covering up his murder Latimer Putin. Personally exonerated every, every official who played a role they get promotions of State honors. The people most complicit in the most shocking miscarriage of Justice. They put Sergei magnitsky on trial. Three years after they killed him in the first ever try like, The dead man in the history of Russia. Identified myself, we can't get Justice inside of Russia. Then we need to get dressed this outside of Russia and I had

no experience as a activists, but I had an idea, which was the people killed him didn't kill him for ideology or religion, they killed him for money. They killed him for 230 million dollars, and it'll keep that money in Russia. They keep that money cuz it's cuz it's usually they stole it. It can be stolen from them. They keep it in the west, they keep it in London and New York, and Geneva and various other places, they send their kids to boarding school in England, and they send their girlfriends on shopping trips to know on and so on so forth. That's why I said to myself. If we can freeze

their Assets in the west and band their visas, that's not criminal justice in the most satisfying form, but it's a lot better than total impunity. Which is what these people have been enjoying up to that point. I took this idea to Washington, I got a meeting with a with a Democratic senator from Maryland in Benjamin Carden and Republican senator from Arizona. John McCain, I told him the story and it slightly elongated version of what I just shared with you. And I said can we freeze their assets and then their visas and these two senators on both sides of the aisle said. Yes. And that

became what was the original magnets. Yeah, it was just for Sergei magnitsky, the moment they put it on the wall books. All of a sudden all these other victims coming forward and saying that you found the Achilles heel of the Putin regime, can you sing from the people who killed my mother or my brother, my sister Etc. And they realize they were on to something much bigger than Sergei magnitsky. They added 65 words to the law, to include all gross, human rights, abusers in Russia. They went for a vote in the Senate. It has 90224 Winford, Road in the House of Representatives passed with

89% and it became a federal law on December 14th, 2012. Whatever Putin went out of his mind in reaction to this and he he ban the adoption of Russian orphans by American families. He made it a single largest foreign policy priority. I'm too I refuel the magnitsky ACT, but instead of being intimidated, the senator said well flat. Amir Putin's got so mad. They be other dictators will, too. And we should make this Global and a 2016. The global Magnus Ki Act was passed since then, Man, in the Moon hasn't succeeded in repealing it. Although, he spent a lot of

time, lot of money and a lot of energy on it. I said, if the United States is doing this, we need to do this elsewhere and we went to Canada the Canadian parliament passed, it unanimously in 2017, the British Parliament, Latvian Lithuanian in Estonian parliaments. And now the grand prize is that the EU is now has. Now made a decision in principle to do a magnet ski act in the EU and I can tell you that bad guys dictators torturers, and Epic rats are literally shaking in their shoes because they do this steal money and their money is no longer safe, and they value money

more than human life. If it is an extremely story, it really is extremely attracted to you personally and you're on your way. What's the postal price? You pay for this? Well, I'm being an enemy of Vladimir Putin is not a, not a very pleasant place to be. If I move a little further away from the security services when I live in London, saying that they had received a message from their Swiss counterparts on that. There was a plot that Russian plot cooking to do something to me in da bows. And and then,

I think many of you will have read about the plumbers that the Russian plumbers, who are here with diplomatic passports, doing something that's just it. Nothing happens. So far, I'm here as we saw a few more days and I'm so knock on wood or whatever, but the last summer I was in Madrid, Spain. I was there to meet these Spanish anticorruption. Prosecutor to be found money for the magnitsky case. Going to Spain, I was supposed to meet him at 11 a.m. on the 30th of May 9:30 a.m. I'm leaving my hotel room and there's the hotel manager and two uniformed

Spanish police officer standing outside my room, ask my passport and it put me under arrest on a Russian Interpol. Warrant from invited by the Spanish prosecutor to cooperate to give evidence to help him prosecuted money monsters, and different division of the Spanish police. Operating at a Russian Interpol, warrant, arrested me. I have a lot of the Twitter followers, I tweeted it out as it was happening and the world came to my defense and lots of people started calling. Lots of. Their politicians are politicians, started calling different governments and Interpol. And in 2 hours later, I was

released and I was also detained here in Switzerland three years ago Geneva airport on a Russian Warren and so I've got issue date Interpol. Arrest warrants for me. They tried to have me extradited from the UK, on a number of occasions. When I've been threatened with death with kidnapping, I've been sued in every different Court. They make movies about me, they call me a serial killer in Russia. They do all sorts of stuff. They can do it as much as they want. I'm not backing down, I carry on and and and I didn't want to say one last thing, I started as a one-man band as you say, but it

has turned into a movement because everybody who's been victimized and every country and I realize we have a tool that they can use to go after their persecutors. And so the uyghurs the rohingya. The Iranian demonstrators Nicaraguan death is everybody now has a tool and are using it and the end and all the sudden there are literally tens of thousands of people all over the world who are using this tool were put in submitting names and evidence who are lobbying on behalf of The magnitsky ACT to get a pass the other countries and it's turned into a very focused but Global movement to

end impunity of dictators and kleptocrats something else. There's something about your story which actually is accountable to Micah's, and it is rather reassuring about the power of elected governments. The ruler flu. The flip of it is that it's lifted the lid. If you like on something that we probably don't look how even talked about enough which is just a scale of corruption and Crimson. No trust in countries like Russia but a little of the world. Have you viewed about the extent of corruption within the system of global

capitalism and China and Mexico. But what, but I discovered that the, there's a lot of corruption and in very developed countries. And we just to give you an example and Switzerland, we, we made it. Animal complaint finding money going to UBS and Credit Suisse coming from Russian the Meg from coming from people, benefiting from the magnitsky murder and and the person in charge from the Swiss federal police are investigating the case, and it was going on for years. And we, please

put it in a 2011, is still not resolved. The main police officer in charge of the investigation was found to be taking bribes from Russia and Switzerland. I mean, if we're not talking about Guatemala in Great Britain, there are there's a member of the House of Lords here in Davos, a member of the House of Lords. That was, that was, that was paid 5 million dollars by a Russian oligarch to go to Washington. Using is House of Lords imprimatur, to Lobby, to lift sanctions for that oligarch Other than the

lady yet, I listen to come to red noses and it just shows the courage that this takes even to just speak here today about somebody who's at the same conference. But my question to you is, is there a different types of tenting purchase into something? You know, about significant that then becomes legislation? Whatever you started as one person and then it almost became a movement. You started as a move by the end of the bit, that's missing, is that leadership bit? And that's what

I'm saying, is that a more effective way of doing it because we're missing the link of leadership. Look, I think that first of the question of what to find success and I think there's a question of what, what are the capacities of these different organizing models? So, This is a great example means. There's lots of different activism is like martial arts. There's lots of different types of martial arts in different ways of fighting you can box. You can you just do it cetera. Also protests have a unique power to spread very quickly, very far, very fast and an impact in ways that are completely

unpredictable. Occupy Wall Street. Literally spent about a two countries, a thousand cities in about 2 or 3 weeks. It's it's insane. Okay? Your struggle on the other hand has taken years and it's but it's nothing important. But in fact, it's some, somebody had to be a leader. You probably could have taken that and done a lot more with it. If there is, if somebody had said, here's our five things we want to achieve. I disagree. I disagree. I think that the

reason why I occupy it spread so far and so fast is precisely because there was no leader. There was a moment when it was growing so quickly that it exceeded the human capacity to even understand what was going on. It was it wasn't an exponential is beyond exponential. It happened exactly the exact moment is when 700 people got to rest on the Brooklyn Bridge and that made such international news that all the sudden all over the world. People started setting up a camp and they didn't have to wait for anybody Exedra Exedra. So obviously, those difficulties with leader, listen, if there's an

advantage and disadvantages, but I think for the particular challenges, in which we Face moving forward, in this decade with client, would need for climate mobilization. We are going to have to harness the power of leader of social protest. The exact your sex with United Nations, with a view, to the region Latin America dealing with a huge number of requests. The moms hopes from protest movement, I'm having those you you had experience on both sides of this document with you how you make activism most effective. When do you

think the government would you do with stockings? Thank you for the question and I have some convergence. All of your points. But I have a very concrete difference and that is that I think protist can become an opportunity and why, so, and I think governments are missing the point at least in Latin American governments. What they are doing is repressing repression, using repression like in Chile, taking them to the military, to the streets, and whatever, missing the point. Instead of, I mean, instead of repression, you should try to see. Why is this happening

and track? There's no leaders. I agree with you. There's no no, no concrete unions. It was not. This was not that but the protests had a come on. Come on thread and that was in equality. I am I stand for that. I really believe that in Latin America in equal inequality, who was in the streets was not the poorest of the poor, was the middle strata, the youngest of the young. Because the Millennials are already in the comfort zone. Sorry, I'm free. Any other

young people are not fifteen to twenty-five years old. Are the people that were in the street and mobilizing their families? Their parents and grandparents, are you had millions of people in the streets. But but because of concrete things, you know, at the end of the day yes there was not a single that's a phrase but it became possible to transform. The brothers. Going to progress in the sense that this movement created sorts of of change the Need For Change social

change. That was impossible before the protest. The Government of Chile would have never agreed to do things that are already doing now, to even consider the Constitution even in fermenting salaries, even incrementing Vengeance. That was not in the Raiders game. The reduced thing was to diminish taxes and the 1%. Hello sew-in in Vina quality. There is a threat in Ecuador, in Bolivia and Colombia everywhere. So now each country, of course, has its own its own reality,

but it's about the lack of opportunities of who of social Mobility, the youngest of the young 15 to 25 are are seeing clearly that is going on here. I mean, I'm not going to not going to have social Mobility. I'm not going to have a clean environment. I'm not going to have you see I'm not going to have no. So where are the public goods who's who is inviting? Who's creating the jobs who's? And those are the questions that are in the street and the government and the elites. We're not listening at the beginning. Now, they are listening a little bit better. Human rights.

Because, you know, and I understand your movement and I am very glad you were there. But you have power. And you have asked, you you went to the White House, right? And you are or do with my pain or whatever and you went to Wall Street, what do you do with these people? That don't have access to No Greater come here and speak English and Spanish Swedish or whatever. But what do you do with the 1617 20 year? Old people of not quite the most sympathetic won the argument that you hear from people in government and you may say, you don't need to take him. Seriously that, that's, that's

that's speaking to those deletes. It is now almost impossible that the speed at which you can orchestrate protest and the speed at which that can actually take the Manifest itself on the streets is just And what you can feasibly do to address that inequality to deal with skills and education to invest in infrastructure to deal with some of the structural problems in a market economy. And for the governments have a point. They when they say that actually protest itself can lead to something that's no progress at all. But instability and actually be damaging for

the people who themselves are you have any sympathy? I died doing the way but I want the last go to buy because the anarchist you were not. So the thing is when the process becomes violent and and goes into looting and you know that's a problem. That's a real problem. I don't know how that emergency. I'm not a sociologist myself but what I do know is that people went to the street in peace peace then they confronted the police and the police was the one who started the violence. I'm sorry. And then then it became like a vicious circle with a

violent violent and anarchists With no calls came in to looting and violence. And so that I understand. Now the thing is that the People Express themselves, you know rationally it was a lady. Has a chance of me that just to stay with you. We wait with you and I just want to ask you just to reflect on the leadership that not having either. He's actually in his Mass demonstration when you take Lebanon. Now when you take a rock I mean these like large demonstrations that

they go without theaters and then the government's, you know, is go all but there's nobody to negotiate with. What do you want? What can we do? How we can then progress these demonstrations for the Going to take action. And then when you said also, you want to collude with the elite, you know that they need to need. You need to partner with them. How do you do that? I mean it is because the it is already are colluding with the government of the government sees that, you know, they can go away, they can do stuff, they can keep her up to, you know, but how can the speakers then? Could you

delete to pressure the government? I just want to understand this point actually did the women swimming last Asus, the women, the women from Chile and and they have made a point of parity so perfect, I mean, not perfect but I mean it's not exactly a leader but it's a concrete cost, gender. Parity violation, no violence. You see these type of things. So I don't know if it's a leader or what we need. Concrete cost that we need to have Clarity on. Sorry, yeah. I mean, I'll just, I'll just respond so much we could talk about, but I guess I would just

look. I would just say two things. Number one, on this question of violence and instability, you know, activist culture, it's like music. Some people like punk band, some people like classical, it's not fair. To expect everyone to like classical music. There are people who believe in inspection, anarchism that the most that Neil isn't political Neil is on that, the most important thing is to burn it down. You will never eradicate those social forces in unrest. And one of the problems with governments and Elites and everything that they always want the clean social protest, it's not going to

happen. When you create these chaotic, leaderless social protest, it brings forward all different kinds of social elements including anarchists. There will always be in our guests are always be black. They're always be his forces but I would say the second thing it is very quickly. It's just that you have to change how you understand these social protest. I think it's Echo something. You just said be still show up these manifestations of social unrest or actually Minutes opportunities for social change. These are the times that these are, these are opportunities for social Evolution. They

stay play, A Soulful evolutionary function, actually a lot. So, I think that the most important thing is to stay and that there are also. So when they happen, it's important not to rush out and squash them because we need that energy to channel into making great changes. In our society's, Greg, this is like a perfect time to come to you is a global shape of. You are an organizer of Youth activism on. If you like the Frontline of environmental issues in a country that itself it didn't those everyday in the Seychelles when you listen to this conversation are you

filled with despair or you can have with a blast? That's a good question. I think I should point out that you are wearing several hats. I'm a global Shape Up from the Victoria Hub in the large ocean states of the Seychelles. It's important that countries like mine factory. I represent. It's not even just sitting here, but actually, having our voices meeting for the hearts, on the issue of climate action in particular, where the least responsible, how about where moms the most honorable and I'm speaking specifically about the Seychelles but that applies to the African continent that

applies to the Caribbean, it applies to your corner of the wild it applies to. So I think it's important, we have a meaningful seat at the table and the other voices. I had fell asleep. I think in terms of where I have hope, I think for me, that's been an interesting component that we missed from the debate, and I think leadership is absolutely important when it comes to protest. Yes, But I also think strategy is important, and I'm surprised I haven't had that so we can mobilize people. Effectively I'm receiving, great example, say where you can mobilize, people people go to the streets. You

have a leader top seed out, but ultimately for me successful protest impactful, protest is about having a clear strategy. What is power? Who are the people got power on that particular issue, is what time in, right? Are you mobilizing affected stakeholders? So for me, that's a wider consideration. When it comes to protest and pick you up Mica made in the in the context of a place are the Seychelles way. You say, actually there's been a long history of protest, but we don't know that protests which was an attempt to fulfil those in power to change direction. But I suppose now we

talked much more about activism where the outcomes are potentially a new run, hands is not a, is that a itself? An act of Wishful Thinking without a reason Vacationing in the in the Seychelles and some of the groups that you're working with the give me about a bit of an idealist. So I'd like to believe in the power of protest. I'd like to believe that you can effectively mobilize, you can effectively get people on side. The key thing I think to me, whilst I was agency, the people who are protesting do, the people who are protesting, have that level of agency. Do they understand

what it takes to influence power? Do they understand what it takes to have the knowledge on an issue really in-depth? Do you have the skills to combined effects of you to have the confidence? I would argue marginalised groups in particular underrepresented groups. Those hip-hop siwa. Laura may not. But when they understand how to mobilize effectively, when there is that level of strategy, then I think change can be broke. Supposed to hear the right. Guess, I think. It's right for this midnight blue, it might be something else. I just wanted to point to bring one for

the forgot to Bob many countries in the world. There's a protest death results are achieved by John Kazakhstan countries and there is a need of kind of solidarity between those protesters who can protest in the developed countries with those who cannot stand it up on the street alone is a huge Challenge and I applaud what Bill Browder is due to the developing countries outside of a developing country is a big impact to the developing world. And just a follow-on Daddy has point. My name is getting fat. I'm from Palestine. How do we go away from protest? A

spectacle mobilizing strategy. If especially in cases, where protest is not necessarily. Let's a visible protest is not allowed. How do we use other form? What are these other forms and 16 oz of? You just have been festering? Do you have with you on the phone? Find me I think back to your point on strategy. I think there's something to be said that the let's hear some failures within the Arab world itself where we are not building strategy as a form of protest and it could be collectives,

internal collectives that can really mobilize and hit Inlet a back back, door lobbying for governments and influential kind of a person elswyth Corporate structures within our own companies. This is away. And and I think that's a language that is not mobilized in the global South at large, and this needs to happen. Simultaneous to, our front roll at a protest at the same time. I think we need to start to mobilize social media, the media, in general. And this is our kind of Avenue to be able to do that. Okay? Thank

you. Just say what you wanted to talk about mobilization. And what do you think, what? So, I think in terms of mobilization, I I suppose so much of this is unique to the Kohl's on the campaign. So you mentioned social media and engaging with the media. For example, that can be incredibly effective when we seen it in in in in your corner of the world. For example that has wet and getting the light a message out there. Just to give an example from the African continent from last year. In Zimbabwe for example where there was a shot

down those electricity shut down that people from Zimbabwe was desperately trying to get that voice inside and they would do it through social media until the electricity was shut down so it can give that ho absolutely. But it's one of many potential tactics. So, does someone here? Hello. My name is good work and I'm going straight through from Armenia did the John have asked to do small exercise? I'm going to States when I see the steel, the people who they called all the money and when they are the same interaction with practice, the uses of the people, we've

become more or less a little bit equal under the keishin skills, it just happened now disappeared. But we use the technology to between power of people who need to be empowered to see near the table and to create that society's. It's all about the society won't sleep. Do we want to empower these people? So my question is to all panelist, do you major in the world where we can use the technology to reach the people? To listen to an example, like I'll plink what we have right now,

but you sure must have nothing you how we can use this for it. May be developing democracy, okay. I'm going to give you but I'm not going to run out of time in just under a minute and I'll see you. At least you have to give that final point. Do you think that technology is going to be able to really enable protest? Helping a lot or I mean it's becoming a mechanism by which many people are communicating and convenient, by the way, many of the social profits and and I have to come back to work or

colleague, from Dahlia, what you said? Because I think this is true. Many countries don't have the right to protest and I come from the UN and we have a tremendous a problem. For example, when we see the violation of human rights in countries and, and the social process sending the government comes to us and says, why are you saying what you're saying about us? But that's not rule you know, as the United Nations, we defend human rights to defend furnace with different Justice. Would have been the voices of the voiceless so there has to be social actors,

social actors companies, also social actors that are looking for the public. I definitely will thank you. I want you to if I could just wrap up. So we go away with a sense of at least what I heard, maybe know what everyone else. I think that Johnny I'm really grateful to you. For the point you made there is a risk that we would you know what provision being here asked you that there is not the right to protest but even access I think the point about countries where

it is illegal and dangerous even countries where it is allowed but not accessible to people. I think taking out a way the idea of the privilege of protest. If I think I suppose if you like a classic novels truism from me that this is the age of activism but it was followed by one of those moments that you sometimes wear a deeply controversial and productive thing is that and it would like to look for my car. The point that that they need the modem narrative, A protest is broken. That is an extremely important thing for us to think I'm in town like when they agree or not,

but I hope that we can take away three concrete ideas. And for me, they were thankful for a protester, turn to progress. We need three things, action, actors and acts. And by that, I mean something that in the form of action captured the imagination of those Impala actors. Whether that is an individual as exemplified by Bill or touched upon the beginning, how do you have some kind of Patricia? It was leadership. But then then acts which is that we shouldn't underestimate the power of the state, the

power of Institutions even made when it seems as though my powers to be institutionalized. I think that Royal Essence that for us whether we're thinking about a trillion trees, whether or not, we're thinking about the next gas was with thinking about the cleanup for the Seychelles. Listen here. We can take away. I hope you also agree with me that we had to live until I'm too much to talk about, but there was still something was doing and making up prude protesters ProPress. Please say a heartfelt thank you to Alyssa to Micah the bill and pray.

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