Sven Glowik
Business Developer at Union Investment Real Estate GmbH
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Proptech Innovation Summit 2020
May 19, 2020, Online
Proptech Innovation Summit 2020
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Efficient Decision Making - hosted by Architrave | PropTech Innovation Summit 2020 *ONLINE EDITION*
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About speakers

Sven Glowik
Business Developer at Union Investment Real Estate GmbH
Maurice Grassau
CEO at Architrave
Thorsten Kröger
CEO at RENTIVATE
Tina Paillet
Global Head of Asset Management, Head of UK and North America and Global Head of Projects and Technology at Generali Real Estate
Denis Petrovcic
CEO at Blocksquare
Lars Scheidecker
Abteilungsleiter at Union Investment Real Estate GmbH
Julian Vogel
Co-Founder at TOWER360
Patrick Woodall
Non Executive Board Member at Architrave GmbH

I have a great passion for software that adds value to my clients' business through an understanding of industry specific workflows and the ability to amaze with an outstanding user experience. My drive is to create and maintain a constructive and productive working environment. One that creates a positive change that feels good, is good for the company and helps expand the business.

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I consider myself to be a forward thinking, open minded person with an entrepreneurial spirit and passion for the unknown. I believe the path to reach our goals will always exceed the goal itself, making our journey just as important as the destination we want to reach.Being raised by parents-entrepreneurs, I had the privilege to be involved in their business affaires from a young age. I learned the importance of passion, perseverance, resiliency, focus, determination and taking failure head-on trough my athletic experience competing in alpine skiing. During my university years I worked as a ski instructor and sailing boat skipper. I was always interested in the business side of it, leading me to organise events like team buildings, workshops and seminars.Today, with the experience gained by co-founding and managing a restaurant, failing an online marketing start-up, successfully launching a web-based energy certification service, leading & designing a proposal project for the world's highest indoor ski slope and successfully investing-in, stetting-up and managing a student accommodation business, I focus on building a future where real estate investments are accessible, digital & global @Blocksquare.io

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About the talk

Topic: Real Estate & Property, PropTech

Successful management is pre-defined by the decisions made, how precise and how timely. In this session we will explore the innovations that are enabling decision making to meet its full potential. Join us to accelerate your processes and define where your choices lay.

00:00

00:04 Intro

10:40 Blocksquare

12:53 TOWER360

16:40 RENTIVTE

19:58 Does coronavirus open an opportunity for blockchain?

23:56 Tips for new global standards

30:43 Asset management and new solutions

33:42 Changes from the investment perspective

37:10 Post COVID real estate

41:10 Q&A

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All right. Good afternoon everyone. I'd like to welcome you on behalf of Union Investment Real Estate to Today's Vision Decision Panel. My name is Sven Glowik, Business Development Manager for Union Investment Real Estate and I am responsible for research monitoring and strategic collaboration with Innovative proptechs and just to give a few remarks on this session as a member of the evaluation and organization team. I'm really excited that we can host this event all night this year not only because we have two things to the current situation but

also to find to try new ways of networking and conferencing with the updated application process. We are now even closer to the challenges of the industry and the winners of this catcher be showed us that they have profound knowledge about the processes of the real estate in the Free enter phone solutions for the key challenges of which our decision-making processes and the usage of small data and someone saw the potential of that a few years ago. And he's with us to the first edition of the

Proptech Innovation Awards is Maurice Grassau. He's the CEO and Founder of Architrave, he was one of the finalists in 2017 and became a valued business partner for Union Investment and I'm very happy that you are hosting this session today and will introduce yourself and our honored guests on the panel. So Maurice the stage is yours. Thank you very much, Sven. I hope everybody can hear me well. Funny times. I want to start with a sentence that found that captures, you know, the current situation quite well and the quote is There are decades where nothing happens and then there are weeks

when decades happen and I think this is sketch's perfect of what we've seen in the last couple of weeks happening to us. I want to welcome everybody to this session around sufficient decision-making my name is Maurice. I'm the Founder and CEO of Architrave and as Sven already mentioned I had multiple attachments with the Proptech Innovation Awards as a computer startup in 2017, and then as a jury member in 2018, and today I'm happy to moderate and host this event with Sven together and dive

into it. So I think what we want to do in the session is what we want to share. Our perspectives on you know, how to adjust to a changing paradigm and get the most out of this corporation between the real estate industry and proptechs And you know what it shows to do the Proptech Innovation Awards was busy again just shows that they, you know continue to be leading this effort and And you know, I think this sentence has become ubiquitous, you know, these past two months in carpet circuits and but

you know, it keeps the framing on the crisis itself as an inflection point, you know, what comes after the monks the years, you know of Heart's transformational work that's still ahead of us. That is still undefined. and I will you to learn how to memorize decisions in a remote where else do you know how to install check and balances in a remote beating was so the discussions that you know, I'm going to kick off a couple of sentences with mainly have three pillars today

long-term you to amend a present for you. So it in the long-term, you know, we look at the system of Leasing and letting is that you know, fundamentally flawed is that if the inflexibility that comes with like 10 years lease contract is there an opportunity to change the whole system to disrupt the whole system and you're done. Something to us a better future. Is that the time to do this right now? That's the long-term you were going to take the knee? What time you'll be going to take a look at you? No remote work long-term business

transformation. You note for the letter and hearing, you know, Less business Trevor. It'll kill all manual processes. See you stick your tires every customer Supply on interaction and flexible work that done. You know, that would surely have an impact on how lease agreements a structured and how are they done? You know, what up? What kind of office is at least you know, what are the flexible terms that we looking for in the future? That's the money and then the present is the here-and-now do we actually have all the information at hand right now to make a

quality decisions fast? So I'm very I'm honored that you know, we have a great great. You keep it on the 10th of this that will enhance that discussion. We have a reflection of the real estate industry and that they operate again on since the real estate industry is Loca the pug text tend to be located. So I think we're missing sometimes tomorrow in an outside Germany European view on the landscape. And so today we want to take that the industry from a European expected. So I'm very glad that we have a very healthy

mix of Industry experts with you know, an international review and also some Financial investment view on the panel and I think you know what that different perspective will help us get in a holistic view on the three pillars long-term need Come and present in the context of the proptech that you know, I'm about to introduce right now. So the panelists Tina Paillet is the Chair of the Board for the people who don't know what Rick says is the world's leading professional body for qualification and standards and land property in

infrastructure and construction. And yes, she's head of Global Asset Management with a focus on Central and Eastern Europe right now previously UK North America. She's a member of Gia investment committee and in focusing on preparing the profession for the project Revolution. Thanks for taking the time to be on the panel today. Thanks for organizing. And next is Patrick Woodall, he is an investor and Chairman Independent Director and Senior Advisor Patrick has been a CEO

of a very successful company that he then sold and I met Patrick because he's been instrumental in also in the success of my company Architrave where he serves as a Non-Executive Board Member and you know, we appreciate Patrick's focus on you know numbers and business efficiency and you know what to ask Patrick. Thank you very much for taking the time to be on the panel today. Thank you, Maurice. Next in line is Dr. Lars Scheidecker, He's Head of Data Management Reporting Services and Systems of

Union Investment Real Estate. Worked here for three years. He is the most qualified to sit on the panel today because he's also a member of a Carnival Association in Germany Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for taking the time. So let's get to the other side, but extremely smart people a lot of context for the market that the operating and not so much the learning by doing group that we had previously. So I'm surprised by that deep knowledge and drive of the industry. Really pleasant people to talk to lots of

interesting views and I'm very excited to introduce them to you, Denis, from Blocksquare. Denis is a Co-founder of STI architecture. Designing a project for the world's highest indoor ski slope an entrepreneur who Co-founded Blocksquare and I think that is probably the best to explain what Blockquare does to the audience. Sure. Thanks, Maurice for the introduction is essentially a platform where you can leverage blockchain technology tuition digital shares and we discovered a couple of years ago how you can transfer value from a real estate

asset to this digital shares and how you can connect them. So our goal is to enable real estate companies that are already established to introducing, you know, digital shares as a way of coming by Sting in Insurgent assets. And this is a way off of basically going from like communication one from pigeons to email to messaging in fax machines before so and this is basically it's the same as going into digital printer services. So, We started this through blockchain lab that we establish right here in this office is open right now in 216 and with

my co-founders he wanted to understand blockchain is technology at that time and then slowly in the cave it became startup while we started to 18 and we slowly been making progress with especially on waiting Pilots were more understanding the market needs through collaboration with real estate companies Next is Jullian from Tower360 Jullian started his career in Asia at UBS. Said that he founded his first company Our mission basically is to help from Real Estate asset managers institutional investors to fix the data and work through

issues. And so I'm looking at the industry today. I miss you two challenges, especially the way it's structured one is that damn the real estate owner out of its processes to external operating Partners to be a property manager in different Jersey is diction in the data relies on different style or substance into the reporting process in the aggregation of the data is very manual in Amazon. And the second issue we seeing right now is at the landlord level the people we talking to you. No clients

typically have the entire work clothes on different systems that do not communicate with each other. What does it mean is the data doesn't flow from one system to the other hand and a lot of manual work involved in that and to start problem do systems must be anniversary UI friendly so takes a long time to train people to use the system in the fallback option. Most of the time is XL in nowadays in two days time, you know, the last eight-ten years it was fine because we're estate was making a lot of value creation and pro buying and selling assets and setting it up

higher price a couple of years later. But what we see now, especially in the downpour and coming is that active asset management will become one more important and you shan't be good asset management was up with pools. That's why I was so people will have to become more data-driven as you mentioned that the beginning to work efficiently and that's where we come in. Play Tower 360 we have built at two things and two things you helping data providers could be an operating partner. But is also the blue behind your assistant. It's an API management platform that you could bring a jumper

connect an accounting system with your invoice management system and initiatives to communicate. That's the basic we have we have to build a base the base and then it's the second part is we have two options that model grows up. What an asset manager does on the losing side the asset management reporting for FreedomPop portfolio management business planning to do that end-to-end. If a landlord wants to work with us and you can only use the APIs. You can also choose from out application that will allow him to manage an applique portfolio from a single point of trees.

Not sure what we're doing is a Christian giving back control on the data that belongs to the landlord and not to an external data provider. To give you everything for life and wine and he puts on the later part of the discussion. Thanks. Again. Thank you very much. Last but not least is Thorsten from Rentivate he comes from my hometown Asset Management Company based out of Berlin and he became the Founder and CEO of Rentivate. So Thorsten please. bring him your level of flexibility and to commercial leasing to accomplish what we call Exile music. What we developed actually in

more than like 14 months of development. I'm using the life cycle, which is entirely due to tie. So we start an online viewing so you can have to make an appointment also for viewing by the way. We really make a difference to today's processor. You can also and you go she ate and close the very same contract your closing today and having a legally written signature with dancehall the firm's and space types and sizes and moreover. We saw the rise of interest in more than just space. That's why we offer a broad

variety on add-ons 2 spaces or always provided by external service providers like Prince Ali's and cleaning services. Do I get possible to have for offering the space and dogs not worrying about the other stuff which might interfere with one friend. Play some samba. Currently. We are mixed and fundraising skating up. The number of listings we have been going to go to Parker's late in the match with digital natives tenants of the first places we have on the form. We lost in January and very happy and

thank you for hosting us. Thank you. Thanks very much. Okay, I'm let's dive right into it. Three pillars long-term near to Amanda here now. So I want to get back to the least efficient decision-making but also for SMS with you know, the right decisions as fast as possible that applies to everybody. I'm so we all need an efficient system to make really fast and quality-based decisions. So I think that's the text that we've heard today and I am having this all in different ways and these ways I want to explore a little bit

Dennis I want to start with you and the view that you know if Corona opens up the possibility now and opportunity that we look at the whole process of trading Assets in the future is now the right time to talk about blockchain and use cases. Did you think that Corona opened up that opportunity? Call first of all kind of Corona Corona put into protective that there's a possibility that a single event in the whole world and that being so cool economies

the disaffection kind of travel around the world or something similar could happen in the future. And this is things. Kind of profoundly change how we understand the world and how we perceive the world and maybe surgeon economies were so focused on themselves that they do, you know the world as a whole and and then others were kind of just left out off of global trade. Now. What boxing is a technology that can provide is a Leo layer of Trust on which you can build applications. That effectively and increase the ability to trade and transact

and the end. It's not just about profit when you tried but he's creating more resiliency. And if you imagine the world where asset managers have their assets tokenize. Let me see part real estate assets here. You can have investors quickly trading these assets to Can-Am Pizza Redmond residency for four possible scenarios to come and the end. I think this is this is the value of x for important times right now to you know, give this a thought that serious. Instead of just

looking in the power things can be done on paper and then start testing out different scenarios. And that's what we are here for basically is allowing none tech companies that really do. Well, wow, that's what they do. So they did manage real estate assets, but we can provide them is a way to digitize those assets without much involvement from their detectives. And in this respect the same tokenization of real estate assets is something that asset managers will kind of start investing in war or researching more in the next 10 years because

the possibilities that it provides have not been researched enough I would say and then the mindset of the people to this Technology's for maybe now they changed their mindsets and that's I think the first step to digital adoption. You know, why? Let me let I let me jump through the 29th because I like that's one thing that sucks in my head when we had the preliminary just got me that you said like if you cannot use the internet with yourself because that's the intranet everybody needs to be part of it and then it becomes

the internet. So I think the best thing that we had around is It's Not Unusual that can buy your software is the whole industry that needs to agree on a standard and Rick's and end at your efforts of trying to get a global standard in multiple areas of real estate Asset Management. What is it that you know, what advice would you give somebody like Dennis? To try to get a new standard into the system off of global upload a real estate class. Great question Maurice. Thanks. I think I maybe just make it just

a bit wider and how blockchain and therefore Dennis your solution on the blockchain. Obviously as you were saying we'll be creating trust because it's a system that's interconnected at the system that keeps, you know logs of time sequences are immutable. So you're treating trust but other things are necessary to create trust and when you're investing online, maybe a small token in an asset across the world from where you are because I see the opportunity for your tool to be opening up markets to in a real estate with an asset class where you had to have Deep Pockets, and

now you're saying maybe I can buy 1/100 of a flat in New York, you know, and I don't have to be, you know, it is like it can be a small purchase but trust is also based on being able to understand and to be able to be certain of what you're buying and it's all about the information that you're going to be putting on your system in order to transact these assets. It's all about letting people do their proper due diligence but in a format that they can recognize so things like all right

with your ACS is working on or data standards to measure surface area is okay. I mean, what's the difference between a surface area measured in New York City? We're just talking about where they measure Condominiums to the edge of the gargoyle or a surface area in a flat in Spain where they can actually count in the surface area a swimming pool or parking lot. That's a kilometer away from the building you're selling so Sol standards so that you know, what your boss when I'm just giving example because you know, we have what we call the International property

measurement standards that they are ACS. This is been running but for me, it seems really important. There are also valuation standards. There's also land measurement standards. There are property measurement standards and then they're all the standards of the services provided. You know, how about how well is yours is this property manage your buying part of a flat you want to know if it's being managed? Well, you want to know if you know how it how is the Retro looking when are the least brakes Etc and that's where I think I would say if you don't

already have it 'cos I know you don't already have an influx where think about adding in a series of standards for the assets that are being traded on your platform sandals that are international that are trusted and then you have the win-win possibility Yeah, maybe I can put the next question to last because your investment is also looking into standards and maybe you can give a hint your what your needs are and when you look again today to her and maybe

also into the things you you are dealing with it at the moment to call me maybe to risk analysis or something. Is there something you can dress to the prop text to help companies like in your investment to digitize and structural the dates. Are you more? Yes, of course. Thank you. I'm currently we have many challenges do to the corona crisis and our asset management have the overall responsibility for the property performance. Therefore. They need all the information and data which influence directly or indirectly the performance

among other things. They need a data set information for sample talent management. For example, letting performance Danville area information regarding current construction managers refurbishments key performance indicators for monitoring the service level of power property managers my research data to support scenario analysis and something like that currently to do the corona drive. We have in our asset managers are very interesting Focus Apartments indicators for our talent management.

So for example of potential or greed rent extensions are a career for outstanding receivables performance productions, for example, and of course the current credits ending of attendance of the main indicators that we are you using for performance measurement and especially for my decision is only a couple of weeks and it's that system in our system landscape. So we need data deliveries from our property managers. We have a delivery to lay off more than 3 or 4 weeks

to get this information. Do we have Hoping it's not a question of data availability? It's a question of the day. Currency time in this we need this information quicker faster than before and that is what we have realized. We have learned that you mean the coronavirus has the data are there, but we need the rate of foster into our systems or for better decisions into our management system. Grace thank you. I want to get to toss and you know, what the what people realized also is that the lease agreement and then if something happens doesn't provide the

flexibility that you know, probably as Avengers need right now. So how do you look at this process and does coronavirus of the flight pushed for a different solution in that's in a process. Yeah, I think when we look at the situation in the market right now, we can also the size of Corona we can look back at the past 20 years and see the average least of the Opera section from the the 70s for the help you so we already lost like one-third of Everett police term and looking at my co-founder Mario who comes from a very big

company corporate. We know that those companies still like you on lease contract to be able to save the track two spaces which are like always elect off but also they have internal vacancies around 10% of the last month. We talked to so much to corporate who said yeah, 10% sounds like an optimistic number. Actually, there's on the white side of me for the conference for the Expos users of space. Nikolai spaces on used to be able to stop please and on the other side that might be all growing demands in

smaller spaces, but there are lots of possibilities to be fulfilled this man. So I think what's currently asset managers and also basically everyone Benzinga space should be developing better Solutions and is having the processes in line to be able to lease space is faster to get to tennis on a database. Sophie available and we just always what this says. I experienced it myself and you need a specific report you want to know about the specific space, but you just wait for things to send over to you that I want to listen to look inside exit overview over your assets. And so

should that be more solutions and should there be a new approach to make it look like almost all other industry sectors are I think yes. I think I think Jullian I was nodding a lot. When last was talking about his tarantulas before we get to Julia Corporation with industry players. What are you saying? I think from the perspective of the first thing I would say is that there's an awful lot of money out there prior to coronavirus that was looking for a home, you know, a lot of private equity and Venture calculus of raising a lot of money in that funds asset

prices have been quite high and finding an appropriate home for that money has been quite a difficult coronavirus has done which oil seismic events do is its make people very nervous valuations on assets investing in startups extremely difficult funding rounds of the moment have I think become much more challenging but I guess what I think is this what you spoke about Maurice which is the time in order to gain alignment between the people who are investors in

protest and in particular it starts up such as myself. Alignment between their potential client base, which is the property of real estate companies and the businesses themselves. What I think we've got to do is we go to see the relevance of their solutions to improving resilience in times when we what we eat for lunch is the old paradigms actually on not necessarily as appropriate 7th. Austin talks about the fact that at least as it comes out on me when I started in the industry the average lease for a commercial real estate property such as a shop was around about

25 years. It's now down to five years. How can we make that even more flexible yet? Still give the certainty to the I said, oh, no that they going to get an adequate yield so that it makes it an investable opportunity and I think it's interesting that Austin's business model Ashley provides for Superior wheels are on short-term contracts in certain areas where Surplus space can be used and I think if you if you look at Jullian and Dennis is a business models. They both have relevance in the short term for this idea of improving decision-making making it easier and

quicker for asset owners and their various find bases to produce better Solutions, whether that be by tokenization, which next three interesting concept because it allows multiple owners of single property very secure bases in Jullian's case of providing data management that is superior to the generic household Solutions. So I think what we were looking for the moment all types of solutions that are relevant the short time but also have the capacity to scale to The Lonesome and I think one of the keywords, I would use the scalability you mentioned it to Amaris. I think

the fact of the matter is the solutions and Tina mentioned it does need to have some type of universal application. It's difficult to be an investor in something that's very niche in the Pro-Tech market. So I die dog you that the relevance Chili's resilience and flexibility is important to be investable biddle said the sky looking to see what Patrick just set know. What do you see the happening post? COVID-19, how can we protect the ability off of real estate companies?

Yes, sir. Thanks. Thanks a lot in terms of the short-term. Like I received it as nothing back to the real estate. What happens afterward is still on a lot of uncertainty around all the real estate market is going to get hit and depends on a lot. So now this virus is going to spread what we're doing at our 260 is time to help real estate owners management crisis in Parker and Barrow Salon b a b more competitive in the in the in the long term of the midterm. Has better control of the data on the short-term Suite B building. I wanted to

get better inside and be more data-driven. So that means also I'm getting access to risk management dashboard to be able to see where the red outstanding is an MTD under strict order a wall, but not only on the rental income side but also on the liquidity side such as ratios and others Happy doing and obviously I'm sorry everyone to tenant relationship management module that will help me gather all the data company level because it's just a contract level is less interesting that the stand the company that is what we have launched recently

that help people to be more proactive and keep a track on descendants discussion as it is mostly all, of course, that's as I mentioned in the beginning in the medium and long-term. What's but we are I'm seeing this is as large mentioned in is a liability to have a future proof backpack. What it means is that you have a system that is at the traffic and API management system that allows users to you as well to collect the data from your property managers in your external Partners in this is a challenging concept and actually goes backward and

standardization. Where is very hard to establish a standard. It's very hard to enforce the standard because everyone has their own standards the technology needs to be an enabler year and India are two ways to go ahead and give him talking with my landlord across Europe and the ideal way as you have a landlord that uses one system and says you should work on that and you should work on that system. You should do the entirety of the reporting in there, but it's very hard to enforce because they already existing a contract with your external data providers in the desert

the right time to do that is mostly when you're here buying a portfolio. So you can enforce new standards but on the other hand in the meantime, that's why we offering both options with our platform is we have user permissions alone you to do the reporting that the other hand we also offering the data aggregation part where you say, I have a rental in Madrid and I have a rental in London. The platform is doing the aggravation and not I'm enforcing a standard. And you said you have to report in. The standard is extremely hard for us to do in my opinion. So I would be very

interesting to know what will happen. If you sleep with me think that the train is going to go to work enabling people to work on the platform and enforcing you know, that that be a poor thing inside of 1/4, man. I wish he needs mindset changes. Well landlord will have to enforce certain things that you know hasn't happened in the past and then I'll get you to show what they think about that. Me too. Unfortunately, we only have 4 minutes left. And I mean I think it's

come to an end so quickly and I'm sorry that it has to be sold a property right now, but I think I want to use the last 2-3 minutes to just see if they have some questions from the audience that that double-check it out before we close this way to get some questions from the audience. Actually in my browser the slider doesn't work. Hopefully, I can have our tasty food for us. No, no, no, no worries. I have noticed I just thought I open it up from a look at the real estate industry and the real estate industry being so

atomized and nobody owns more than two to 3% market share and the importance of sanitization becomes bigger and bigger and everybody had on this. You know, what is your view on how can we speed up because technology, you know We want you guys to have a standard that makes it easier for us technology people to provide you with the solution you want. Why don't you agree or understand Africa? It's a very good wrestler. Is there any kind of standardization is she mentioned before very difficult and

cannot be realized in an in a few weeks. So I would recommend and that is what we do at you and investment to develop and establish and Industrial sand that together with other market players and this explains for example of especially our engagement in the activities of baby. You can put that deliver in connection with a stripped screw, but we have to run out to get the other readers. It asset managers property managers dropped XM Consulting companies the first

standards. But so far our business is still on a license of unstructured data and information in pies and documents until I'm convinced that this concept and this approach is good and sustain the policy success solution. Is full knowledge you like it or not theme Google corporate with our business partner to finish reading the business relationship with standard Sage should a senator size ratchet physically signed documents. So I'll bring all the market players together on a table and give them only a few weeks and stay. Okay, then we need a solution

and maybe it's a good idea if it's in my opinion, it works it's the way. I think we have just one more minute to answer one of the questions of our viewers. They sending hugs. Can we have the same? I think we are out. question from the audience about your breaking up So how far is Seoul address again? There's a question of one of the viewers and they asked how do you see the take ecosystem evolving and any are there any synergies incorporation or even matters? So maybe there is a question for Tina. I'll Patrick and maybe

you won't answer it. As you are invested in companies or have the overall view. Patrick maybe it will have to because one thing that a crisis like a coronavirus does it put cement Financial pressure on to businesses and what is inefficiency in business model never to be going to be five years since we've seen that recently with COVID-19 with his pet bigger collaborations. And this certainly going to be much as and acquisitions has to be because what coronavirus send and such seismic

changes, does he puts enormous pressure but that is something that I think is a healthy sign. I worry frankly that in an environment like this that the dangerous the assets to the put together to form together collaborate are done on the basis of a necessity rather than the majestic bath benefits for the clients and so I personally will watch it carefully to make sure that it's not just about stripping cost out. It's about delivering benefits to the ultimate client. That's the reason for doing it. It's not just something that saves immediately

cost. All right, it's a pity but I think we have to stop for now as I just took the conversation. It is very interesting and I want you for a long day. But unfortunately, we have run out of time. Thank you very much for my side and then maybe lease you want to close the session with remarks. Yeah, I know what I really want to thank everybody in our business in $500,000 per day by not having had a conference room in our buildings and maybe we saved by not having to subtly move around outside the conference room window in

an agitated fashion trying to hit the current occupants to wrap it up and getting to choose M. We were all using this time now and we will get out the other end in a much stronger and better than we got a special thanks to you know, the outstanding panel for their perspectives today and I'm sure that we were able to show that this new breed of found us and CEO with that. Knowledge and Braden sides. Is it something that you know, we will see much more of in the future. So, thank you guys

pleasure to meet you and thank you very much also for the audience listening and joining for the session, so and thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you. Bye.

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Founder - Chief Executive Office at UNFOLD Consulting
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Gesa Rohwedder
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