Table of contents
About the talk
Sankalp is an investment banker turned tech entrepreneur and investor. He has extensive experience in traditional financial industry having worked at JP Morgan and Deutsche Bank. He has also been a serial entrepreneur over the last 7 years having build and sold few Fintech, blockchain and AI companies including a fiat and non custodial wallet, crypto exchange, consulting platform & a tech services company. Sankalp is also an active angel investor, a blogger, speaker and hosts an Asia startup podcast @HashTalk.View the profile
Anton Golub is the founder and CEO of flovtec, Swiss technology company providing market making solutions to digital asset exchanges & token issuers to create a liquid and efficient market. Anton is also a co-founder of Trust Square AG, a pre-eminent blockchain technology hub located in Zurich's financial district. Anton co-founded Lykke Corp, a blockchain-powered exchange to trade all assets with zero fees, where he served as a Chief Science Officer. Prior to Lykke, he worked as a quantitative researcher at Olsen Ltd, an asset management firm that pioneered the field of computerized trading. As a Marie Curie Research Fellow at the Alliance Manchester Business School, Anton worked on high-frequency trading, market microstructure and flash crashes. In 2011, he was invited to participate in the Foresight Project - The Future of Computer Trading in Financial Markets, an international project on algorithmic trading funded by HM Treasury in the UK. Anton has also been involved in several research projects backed by the European Union (EU) and was in the Supervisory Board for the BigDataFinance project funded through Horizon 2020. He has co-authored 13 academic papers and two books.View the profile
Olga Yaroshevsky has become a personality known in the global blockchain community for her media management and content work with NexChange Group and previously with Tokenbox project. Her interviews with widely respected figures in the blockchain world are renown and include talks with Roger Ver, Brock Pierce, John McAfee, and Dirk Ahlborn. Before joining the blockchain industry, Ms Yaroshevsky worked as journalist, interviewer, editor and reporter for TV channels in Moscow and Kiev, Ukraine, while contributing to a number of magazines and printed journals. In 2014 she moved to the United States, where she worked as an editor and writer for RT news website and pursued an academic career as a teacher of Russian language and literature for students of AU, Georgetown University, Russian Cultural Centre and post-graduates involved in the international Alfa Bank fellowship program. Ms Yaroshevsky graduated from the Journalism Department at the Russian State University for the Humanities. In 2010, she completed her PhD research in Russian literature (philology) and received a scientific degree.View the profile
Hello, hello everyone. My name is Aldi or shasky, its Hong Kong launching week and I'm happy to welcome you to the second part of the grade D. 5-day Big Talk, big time do today. Right now we're going to be diving deep into the Seas by echo system and a very happy to welcome our Catalyst today. I'd like to start with a quick round of introductions. Do we have on board today? Sent out the old Alchemist. Again you too. Lisa 10 is the founder and Lead Economist at economics design. Thank you so much reason for joining us. Oh
yes, thank you so much. Okay, so I'm tan go look under and seal all that's wrong with the lens. Is that right? That is correct and a warm, welcome to everyone from Siri that what? I'm hovering on a drone right now, no dislikes of Cassandra and CEO of Derry on a school gluer, a deep thinker on everything related to trading and crypto. Thank you so much and you for joining us. I woke in a run. Okay, so I guess I will start with a round of what I call personal questions, right? So that we
can get better acquainted and our audience will better understand what you do. And what is your, what is your attitude towards defy? So, I was really start to love start with Lisa because I know that you are a search work, is actually focused on ecosystems and I saw many of your videos. I really like love that. Why do flies not upon this cute. So let's talk about the importance of what you do, first of all, and then about the importance of engineering fundamentals. Like economics, what you do when Building & Design This ecosystems Absolutely.
So I think that the entire world are we eating today. It's taking the whatever that we have in the traditional role in the physical world and moving it into a very decent life and digital system and doing this process of moving from a very physical world to a whole new dish show and decentralized vote in this process creating and redefining what the economics is to think of how we moved from from metaphysics to quantum physics, we're redefining the entire physical, the science behind all this is God's things that we know and physical materials in the same way, we're doing that with
economics. And if you move to this decent life that just do Eagle systems or redefined the economic state governments, the incentive system that covers all these different decentralised agents in the system. So what I've been doing was when I came in to crypto or when I came into the space, I was very excited about the technology and the things that you could bring to us in the decent-sized future, it's really, really exciting. But the problem is that a lot Extends the fundamentals driving, this change. How do you stop muting? Very robust and sustainable system from the inside. What
we seen the 2017-2018, I see your face with a lot of speculations, a lot of marketing, a lot of hype train to sustain the growth, but real growth comes from within just like with humans. And that's how you grow as a possible because its 3:16 about Andrew basiago system that grows from within. And how do you read Define economic, I read all the way back to the late, you know. Where are these theories? Came up? Because of the Industrial Revolution and then you ain't been to a lot of great ideas. We didn't
have the technology, we didn't have the tools to do the interview today with BLT with blockchain, we can take all these different ideas and apply them in the world today and to build the World of Tomorrow. So How to do the research. I deconstructed, economics to its fundamentals in economics principles like hot places like physics or biology will be a fundamental principles and then how can we apply them in equal system in decline of crypto or defy ecosystems? So that we can align incentives because everyone responds to incentives. And then beautiful a
sustainable ecosystem, has a girl in general. That's very interesting that sounds like a you know applying Rivers structural and berries. I spell in centralized approach to something like that. Looks like a wild west. That's fascinating. Thank you. Lisa. Okay I think we're going to go back to that a little later. Now I'm to you. And so where's the liquidity in the Deep by space and what are those decentralized liquidity pools and how one learns how to navigate
them? So thanks, thanks everyone for having me here, and I'm happy to answer this question. I will suggest for a dog eats understand where I'm coming from. I was like, she originally in my previous life, like the way I like to say that was actually a high-frequency Traders on Market maker in the Foreign Exchange Market. And then I co-founded one of the first blockchain companies in Switzerland, rebuild a semi-decent tradition, meaning of atomic bombs were happening on the Block Chain again to trade for match. What is that? You have to be really fast? And it was like, the Central Park,
at least you were a company. So, we had a very clear governance structure, but it's kind of where I came from and they'll learn the hard way running exchange, especially when you get your ass. It's okay tokens without Vision brakes, right? Past it, and he's going to where I came from and liquidity Solutions, digital asset exchanges and don't know what's happening in the deep space out. Kind of like, And what's the point of them? Kind of what you learning very fast when you
try to do marketing, when he tried to provide Capital to provide liquidity and then actually this is where this capital is gathered from third-party is actually the so-called liquid people's. So do I need to get it from somewhere and then they actually do it to soak a liquid body entities. We can do retail investors speculated in professional and if you have a market-making protocol that's a lot of capital from a very fast growing and vibrant ecosystem like Lisa was actually mentioned, you know? He seems like
he's really really important. When it comes to building a groin, going to buy the Texas, or are you texting market-making? Brothels in general and they are not related to the protocols themselves but actually to the latency of the network. So what you going to learn very fast, is that the market may be should be done very fast. Like I knew when we have launched their own exchange many years ago in order to keep this station a slow by Nature. This is the blockchain trilemma, how you want to call me? That's kind of just want to have this situation like my neck by Nature. The protocol is very
slow and didn't realize I was safe or unsafe or markets are not that safe. If I can call it like that because you can easily get Arbitrage Puyallup digital agency of the network itself. So it's a great great idea. I have to say, like when we observed in context of Market, making her distraught to call taxi show exactly how the future will look like, but it's just way too early and why it's way too early because of latency, should because of not optimal solution, but it's actually really
like that. It's like a small addition to the, how the future will look like, but unfortunately, we are, we're way too early for it since like finest, he's like the senseless finest principles or automated marketing photos are of the same positions will not replace centralized exchanges anytime soon, but actually be kind of hybrid approaches and I'm happy to follow up later in Des Plaines weather. A hybrid approach is how they look like it, maybe even hinted a couple of projects that will bring that to life in a couple of
months ago. Yes, please. That would be interesting and I wonder if your guinea has something to say about that but then your first of all, can you tell us more about Siri on? Because from my perspective and it personally you and your team, you are a big part of the echo system. Yes, yes for sure. And the Restless is irium, is the ultimate interface to invest in decentralized, finance, particles and acid when we started the fire was a very complicated and very fragmented market. So we noticed, and for the users, it was actually very hard to,
you know, jump straight into any kind of acid even using stuff like a slob, has a bunch of berries on the way. So will you set on the path to solve this issue and to make it Define? Vestment much, much easier process and the simplest things such as a foliar. It's something that we sold and not any other companies do that after we. So that's that's what they were as of now. So you can come in with your boy with a single transaction invest in. Pretty much anything that is available in the device.
I'm talkin about to the point of likes and try to exchange some sort of a hybrid approach is going to emerge, but I would, I would suggest probably going to happen on the legislation. Brosnan look on the computer Central isolation. Like still in my view is not the elbow, it's just like a temporary solution to the problem because Interesting. Thank you. I think we'll go back to that again. So I would like to address my next question to some calls. If you have anything to follow
up with, let's go ahead. With my question was you about the echo system of defy in China and Southeast Asia because that's has become a thing as Banning the ico's. Trying to, you know, it's been a lot of attention to the market. And so how does the echo system? Look there. That's so this is a very broad question and I'll try to answer. Just to give you a perspective, you know, we I'll go visit a company and Dick's in having built for Buckingham please and sold them last year and you're building a couple of other very large projects with lunch. Soon at specific
question. I, I am at Kroger. I so, and, and, and a student of History II. Try to understand economics, like Lisa, but I cannot, I'm not smart enough, I guess. But, but if I look up last for 5 years, I I break down this ecosystem into three parts. The first was dijsselbloem II was the exchange of the IU boom. And now it is the defiled, the ideal, boom. And and largely Bunk bed, but the common thread for all the tree blooms has been money, making that there is no, you that is no other use case. There is no other token of a Chesterfield Avenue.
El profeta are any company van for that matter. It's the finances and the Krakens in the coin basis of the world that have really done, well, a few exceptions, of course they, there are some Revenue making companies and, and, and they will shine out. Don't get me wrong. And then most of them are working hard. It's not that, it's just that human breed is overpowering, the beautiful tack that, these guys are building it sits and, and you cannot be that even today, defy, everybody's just after the year. If there was not a hundred percent, 50%
65%, yield people wouldn't be in it and answered and leave. And there is a Bitcoin Reese, McLean everybody. Starts to dump their defy coins, another take away for me. Again, from this tree blooms a very simply on the macro perspectives in the first one because it has sold out. Everything else kind of failed. I'm not really failed but but couldn't match the Bitcoin and later a superlative in the second born. He won't exchange tokens the bmv's and the end the
whole B's and C's and the coins they did very well in this. Defy, boom. Again, in this bull run, everybody will do well. And everybody is doing well, but eventually I think, if you are not a day trader or I'll bet he hadn't invested in this than the safest game is hold your top three, fire defy coins, and you'll be just fine. You won't make you a hundred percent, but you'll make your 20. Which is, which is good enough to to have a good night sleep. That's, that's my
I'm going back to my question about the the echo system, right? Because I think you're you've been talking about this from her perspective books from inside of the echo system. So did bitcoin.com bone lead to an echosystem, involvement did Bitcoin bull at 2 that we're out in the ico's, it's 2020. What will be the consequences of that defy? Both I think I think I think the defy ecosystem that was a question in and that today Define ecosystem in Asia is divided into a three or four broad categories. The first
one is the investors who are quickly flipping tokens Buy Low sell high or getting to the company, only make your 20 30 40, 50 per cent, get out. The second kind of investor is is the the one who wants Equity as a piece of your business as well alongside tokens because they either believe in the team or believe in their product, the Third Kind of investors is the narrative investor the Young. Young fans that are coming up, who themselves are building communities for you, and who themselves are actually doing very well. Because they understand the
entire narrative, economics behind the human greed that we were talking a deer. And and, and the last part of I think investors is is is is is largely, I think the founders themselves who are launching projects launching funds or creating sub companies different companies on back of the, the New Wealth that they have gained. And then each one of them is kind of a mafia, that's how it was with a couple of interlinking people in between Send in the right thing to do to be a part of their game. Just like Silicon Valley's. I think I think we should rename this.
Thank you. That's an interesting out a here and well following up on that. Do you think that the defy space which is relatively small still, and still an issue despite the huge growth and that almost 14 billion US dollar slot in the decentralized network. And so do you think it's too small and too fragile to be managed on a large scale? I'll throw it to everyone. I'm happy to follow up on. And also, I think you because of Jenny kind of wall sucking to the doctor myself, as well as that. I think that the Sopris, my cake is the device patient's microscopy, got to take a
closer look at these microscopic. And also the question then is like, what happens when things start to scale and then actually, you know, either you are in the position to scale or you're not and then need to know what you were. Either a crack or doing off crack and I think any kind of layer one Solutions will crack know because they are just like he's been proven to the blockchain cannot scale if you have actually hundreds of millions of users and she know, that's where my point, right? When is that you do have layer 2 solution that will actually use the blockchain to actually locking
Us in whatever and then don't delay or two part, they will actually have 5 performance solutions if you're able able to cater to millions of Clans. Hopefully, we'll be live. Something's beginning of next year, was actually back up front of call. You should be our kind of out of the box, derivatives, trading venue, where you can create a futures or options Market to trade on demand. And what kind of very interesting is that kind of talking about hybrids. We are saying were there will be a hybrid solution of the technology side. I don't understand like, how does that
make you? So she's working on the central exchange is there. Actually there goes that you have to deliver our chief is a market maker for a particular change when you forgotten what we see as well. Take those goals or KP eyes will be integrated into the protocol. If you want to participate as a required to provide you a market-maker, we just got to find you answering to it because you think you have to go into the codes and it turns out most of it will go into the code. And then, yeah, I think you will get super interesting than I make to see how that will play out when you have a hybrid
between the exchange itself or Adidas. Side the door, the actually demands how things should be actually run from a liquid to a point of view. I take me to step back, you know, the proof is usually in the pudding. So when things will start to schedule C in a water, what will happen enhanced? I would also be interested to hear the thoughts of the other participants, you know, what are they up to Mystic or not about scanning, what is going to come. How
is that different from traditional Finance in traditional five nights at all about making money to you. Look at this pace, compared to the spot rate of these Financial products bigger than the spot products and it's because people make money and as much as you want to keep saying that is not good because it's something to be putting in a different uses collateral tube using a different political. That's exactly how traditional Finance what underlying technology in trying to align incentives and try to remove the middleman and Spreading the margins of the big fair to everyone
but not completely changing out because because people are dead. And is that why they will continue to walk? There are a lot of limitations in a mess today and decentralized exchange. They will definitely be a migration of both Central. I can be certain to be a lot of player to Solutions being out there and there's a lot of limitations there currently quite a number of limitations in the text back. But the fire still burning in auberry. What we trying to do is to experiment with these new technology reviews, new
incentives. All these new mechanisms to try and see how we can achieve. Just even a small amount of efficiency increased because the traditional Finance business, so inefficient that any smaller percentage of efficiency to the system can create a huge amount of margin that, that can be unlocked and distribution. Everyone is more than just making money. He's also bringing other people, the hole, and getting everyone, a bank account with everyone get access to financial products. That's one of the goals as well, so he is making money is one of the things which will definitely be there
which is the main driver in the ecosystem. But it's also I really like the idea of these options of all these kind of Structured Products that will be on defy to allow other people to use them. And do you tap into the, the latency to resolve the latency issues and they are too. But the other side is also trying to increase the amount of blank in its right increased other people coming in to defy with technology allows us having two more tries to self different kind of problems. And I think that's super interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. You've been naughty the whole time. Redefining good texter. And the on top of that, there's things that we haven't yet. Seen the traditional Finance to stuff like Flesh. Wounds is just the first example of that, but I'm waiting patiently for more things there. That's have no animals in the divisional finals. Please see why do the markets work? And that you'll see at this point, but it's going to change anything over time. And the like will receive tokens that have some connection to the physical world
makers moving in that direction to trying to bring more and more collateral. Physical worlds, inside a protocol and saying goes to tokens like, Realty, connect to let you know, real estate ad on the points about like he is defy lady for the mainstream adoption. So, that's what I wanted to say is that I think I want to see. So when we started with the blockchain itself, but the promise that before there was no real use case for that kind of stuff, do it yourself. It's empty. As soon as we see the supply starts to get Chava sent you and the space in the icing space.
Before there were no use for that. Many is Mark contrabass transactions and it is only now that we see, you know, this is a real bottleneck and now we see you like And I was finally starting to see their two solution becoming more and more realistic. So I think it's just it's all very natural and it's going to bowl with naturally over like the next year's to bring more and more users within the system. Hanover investment SoCal. Do you think that it's actually
relate to the industry growth and do an opportunity for a larger scaling? Yeah, I'm in the short. Answer is. Yes, I think there's this huge opportunities for more and more institutional money to come in, which is just started trickling into Bitcoin in any thirium for that matter. And as defy my chores and and more technology is built on on this that you will you will see a smart money. One always needs more and more Avenue to 444 more yields start going into this already. You you have so many visas you know of so many fine sons who are starting to put the part of
the portfolio into this. Everybody want greet. Everybody loves greet. So I think I think I think that you're that short answer is yes. Okay, great wealth, couldn't agree more. And speaking of you know, the directions or the future grow on likes to pull up the topic and maybe specifically. And if he tokens for emerging economies for emerging countries and what are initially, the prospects for the echo system to grow bigger in that direction, helping people
who needed, don't have access to traditional banking to Neo banking would rather want to go. Don't want to go back to the future world with rather use digital currencies and non yet regulated T fight Financial tools, right? And maybe stay and play acoustical Park here. What do you think? Who the hell is this? What is different entities were talking about? Each token is very Israeli music on its own accountant. Be replaced with a couple of different classes of NST that's going on right now. She's not someone talk about
Prophet, Isa properties, one of them. So, if you own a piece of land that represents, and then that that took him, call me replace with any other random random other pieces because each lens, you need, these are some type of energy that represent physical products, and you also have entities that represent the products. So it could be, it could be in some form of in-game items because these then there's a new entity that has been talked about for a couple of years, but not really implemented. Yet we just in a fuse for inventions. So almost of intellectual property,
bring tokenizing to a token. It is something that's quite interesting because you've Jenny talked about Kind of like a reward vacation and this is one of these little smaller, their weapons applications that come out soon and trying to revolutionize the way we do things. So, if you look at International properties, you look at the phone kind of rights that are in the traditional in that comes with very sick contracts. If we can turn that into a token and it can be up to my sis, my contacts, that could be one of these in the venue. At the other thing that I'm experiencing on the site,
it's going to be but looking at franchising and Licensing and Publishing rights and all these kind of right as a form of NFC. So it becomes a photo of calculation to understand how these different have to account for all these transactions that's going on in a digital world because everything is based on now. So, that's a very interesting use of energy that is coming up quite strongly. I don't know if you can classify them as a social Community represented individual It's a kind of a mix of NF is because Lisa
individual tokens but also kind of like a fun to go to a gun because you can trade them and eat. If I have 10 needs a token each time he's out of them are kind of the same but they can't have different kind of properties. Because I had to create that can Define them that we talked about and what we talked about the unbanked and the developing world. And these are not that big in the space yet, I've not heard of that many, but most of the other access and currency that can get access to these kind of financial products. So that's the, that's the other interesting thing. And one of these
to someone about make a doll, just now make it out and doing quite a bit with the developing space, and trying to provide money to these communities, which is very good. One, as you go, father, is probably to provide insurance for these kind of tokens because if you look at why USD, so precious also available is because USD itself is insured by the central bank, by the federal, Is that insurance is basically the value at that us. He brings to every other every other individual using USA travel. So what will be the equivalent in NFC? Or it could be something like a wrecked.
Make a guy, a guy that has Insurance in there and they'll be quite useful for the unbanked. That's a good point Insurance. Interesting, anyone wants to answer that. I wanted to add just one example to that server, looking at Argentina. Like I don't know, how is the price of 30% higher than the average price in the market because for them, because of the controls of the, like something like 49% or something around that last year. And people were cashing out into died instead, and then that's why I make. Hers is big and Argentina. They're trying to help and
options because of these reasons, I think over time people are just going to get more and more exposed to stuff like stablecoins. At just the first the first introduction to the deepest space. If I may ask you something in just because we were now, I think I like the elephant in the room was mentioned several times and no talking about the insurance. Now I think we need to know for me personally and also because I lost the keys actually, a complaint in regulated entities which are these what happens with regulation in the deep space and how does
that actually fit the narrative? A division a lot of these projects require at least their current vision is that she did they are going to be and stay healthy unregulated. In this environment, I'm jamming on our side we talked to lots of a professional institutional. Investors are people who really believe in doing things the right way and just being a sting gun, regulator has. He's just not enough to actually have to be provocative making. This discussion is actually that's the only way for defy to succeed. And, you know, bring banking to on Bank fees, extra to become highly
regulated at one point because there's them, I cannot see a scenario where this becomes a mainstream solution for, you know, people globally. And, you know, we are shivar Vision, but it says Holly unregulated mod 2 a wild west that was reminiscent of the early, you know, days of the crystal ball. So maybe ask the toys out to about the draft analyst. You know, what to say, what do they think about regulation, and compliance? And if I stayed because it from the community, can hear them say no. But then from this big investor day when I get on board, I hear. Yes, you know, bring the regulations. So
I think we have to find ourselves somewhere in the middle of, you know, when it comes going forward, I'll take this one because I'm quite involved in the regulation space, we have regulations in the local economy. You have to have international standardization before we have localized regulation where regulation is defined by jurisdiction because with standardized International standardization thanks a lot easier to talk about internet. The bility it's to align all these different regulations in the different jurisdiction. What's the biggest problems in standardization of speaking? To
these regulations? Is that, you know, how difficult is Right technology? Locals are very, very complicated and I'll return to overlap, be so close together. And after Regulators to get up to speed with whatever that's going on in to get super educated to understand how these things are, and then the forecast 20 years, into the future, that we can make regulations today that can be ready for for the ink for the world into any other time this week. So difficult and you know how like boy, this they are extremely risk of
us. Regulators are 100 times worse than that and it's just a nature because people don't like change. Change means a lot of different things. People going to do two jobs and so I completely agree. That regulation is needed because you have to protect people who don't understand what's going on. But regulation itself is extremely, extremely difficult and it would definitely take a long time. We've been trying to do a lot of regulations. And to analyze like the truth of what he's out shooting a must or wish or suggested a recommended shooting. One of these was to add
into the country, to add to the legal paper takes one hour. So having changing the entire regulation or creating a whole new regulation for it will take a very, very long time but it doesn't stop Innovation from going innovation. Has to go across concurrently with why The Regulators are doing. The thing is, I don't know who's your play catch-up and yeah, that's what I was just watching you guys. What do you think? Mitek is that especially for defy, it's such a tiny space that we were talking about earlier and The Regulators is so backlogged earlier,
Ico era that I don't think it's a, it's a space for them even to consider today, we we have been talking to a mass self or feel or hear things, and I think, I think it's too too early to do. Even waste your time, to be honest. But but yes, as more and more detail, getting more land and more and more complaints. To come in, you, you will have some ice on it but it's a slow-moving, elephant, mostly rightly. So because because they, they have to raise, they cannot Deeper wrong foot anywhere.
They cannot step wrongly anywhere. And then they have to keep the repair, guys, at a stoplight in the mines. So so I I personally don't think of defy regulations as of now, Maybe self-regulation. Oh yeah. Yeah, and because of being at the founder of the company and they said, I have to come back from this location and not every company's just trying to avoid it and it's not in there plans to always stay outside of the regulation. The first of all, it's very hard right now to understand what kind of Regulation you're fully understand because of there's no there's no way,
you know, every single regulation out there if you want to stay completely can buy an impossible for most of the companies and that's why I think for a for a long time, stay in this gray area and List local advertisers. If I can find some of the Charges going to stay, but over the long time. I think is going to be Me to regulate and looking at us, like, how are actually on the smartphone. So, you can see, the way we can easily do this. How we can Embark, certain Quinn's, being eligible for trading, certain the council table for trading, kill, all of that is,
it doesn't as long as everyone agrees that Innovation is they have in mind as well. So I'm trying to think of them as like helpful and in the long run. And I think we should work together to space to get them on board and has been regularly please and innovation. What about the self-regulation than the governance? We're talkin about the echo system here. Why doesn't the echo system? Take the staff here, right? And self-regulate. What time is it in that direction to other companies about different safer for retail to, to trade? I think that
are in the beginning? Like, if you, if you take the analogy of defy being Banks and other Finance, It seems impossible to number, you know, I'm in the world. So I didn't make the safest experience for the users. Well, I will go on the nerdy way and tell you about the economic way of Regulation when it comes to when it comes to economics of a system, it can be split into three different pellets. The first one is Market in the design of the environment in which participants in to interact with and
it's really constraint. So that's how you define. That's where the boundaries of your economic system are the design of the rules of the game wasn't exactly right. Governance comes in different kind of boundaries all different kind of problems by the machine I'll buy the game itself and these are different forms of governance and government. Do you have decision-making you have when you went out something happens and I haven't told you resolve that you had voting mechanisms because someone wrote the majority vote doesn't always work. It's not the most in a robot system is not the
most efficient system and then economics. What is the purpose of governance? What are the things that we want to achieve with governments? Are we looking at maximizing individuals, utility or individuals meeting us? Or do we want to look at maximizing social utility? So as an ecosystem, how do you maximize the best benefit to everyone and some people will get a bit less but in general everyone gets marginally quite equal. So that's where becomes a bit tricky in designing and creating
these kind of ecosystems because what are you trying to come on? What's the objective of governance? Then from there you can stop breaking Governor's down, how do you govern it? What kind of incentives do you want to do? How do you align all these different people? Different process ones who want to optimize to a different things how can the token optimized for that? How can you tell can align incentives together? And this becomes very important, very important. And if you look at the trailer that we are going to become a governess to become a new S8 cost. Because it combines kind of
a bond which is a fixed income returns with together with an equity. Because now you have ownership of a company all of this protocol and Logan tries to bring these two together that is embeda in coat in the system and then allowing individuals as humans to be voting or to be making some changes and Hue at a human level. It's that execution was done by machines and the big decisions are done by people and governors. Token is trying to watch these two human and digital world together and trying to get the best outcome. For an ecosystem is super, super exciting. And that's my
governess to his very interesting. There's a lot more to consider than just Wi-Fi is going to pump my crazy or what was going to be the best ever because you need Rising like crazy. It's a lot more than that. It's a lot of engineering and economic concept that goes into government, still gone and we are just scratching the surface. You're still experimenting and it's going to be very exciting 2021. Lisa. I mean, it sounds so beautiful when you describe it and explain it, okay?
If not, I would rather move to where we discussed regulation. But also here I would love to touch the topic of a user protection, right? Because of the decentralized nature and because of there are no rules there yet, well, that was a basic rules. We have some of the macroeconomic laws are still applicable here but still what about the user protection? What about a consumer protection there's no regulator. And that would say I'll take care of you know everyone takes care of themselves. Thank you very much. So
what is the solution here is there? Or is there a need for this? Anyone think I would need to shake you a little bit going, like, like that. Every site, I think most Founders who are actually building great products and pay technology for the long-term. They they they, they themselves know how to or why to regulate their teams, they played their product and and, and be inside the regulation and not do something to pay dark rookie on as they call it, pulled the rug in in, in the
D5 work. So so, so in these are very, very smart people. Who who would want her to bring something for the longer-term. So so why say there is no need, but obviously, There will always be some bad elements will kick in as as the years grow and prices grow and and I'd like like every other historic face of the society. If you go back five hundred years from from the Dutch guilder to the to the British pound, to the US dollar to the Bretton Woods in the
1971's bad elements. Anyone else? I'm sorry, I'm happy to provide my, you put them back and I think it goes in line in terms of self-regulation and wipes. I think I might Cypress play not suitable for the Define world use because if I project a very poor track record of self-regulation themselves and I think it's not feasible and he's just like it. If I have to reflect House, Los tigrillos would be five projects. And how do we select the right part? Which is actually we have to be aligned on the values and our
values, you know, that these the customers first to experiment with them, we always work in their best interest. If the parts are actually shared the same values as we do then we decide to work with them now. Isn't this a bit ironic? Because we're talking about was called EcoDiesel talking about soft. Serve were talking about something that runs without any Interruption no matter what happened. But it turns out that the, you know, An approach. The Proven track record for Los tekis actually to find and partner. The people who have to share the same right values. As we do the Grammy, this is a
bit of a conflict, you know. So I think I actually the coach and all the other side apartments that chosen to be $17 or not which is in a while. Again, I become more provocative statement annually for this panel rather than you know, a question of governance which brings me to a follow-up question. If let's say when it will have the consequences office a.com, boom, will there be companies like Facebook Amazon? Defy, Google anything? What are the prospects for that? I'm happy to jump in here. So I think
I'm being just a general term for the like, for everything with them was going on. So they were like different parts of it. But I kind of connection in a Samsung ultimate evolution of technology that that's been having to hear clear crypto are part of defy and like you even argue with that. But that's how I see it Google. I definitely think about this technology. Can bring new companies of that size and if we just start thinking like a friendly, seems really unrealistic.
Install a complicated this to use and just in general, I like little liquidity. Theirs out there, but we should keep in mind when he's been like for the device space, for the old is to protocol is being just two years and his group remarkably. And the number Evolution with seeing is like, I'm like we've seen in the context of space for many, many years, I think it's going to be there for some portion like a pretty big portion and there's definitely space for
it companies like Google and Amazon, that, each of these can can be found in terms of what kind of use cases, we see in the different space. So I believe like, looking at Syrian we sometimes refer to ourselves as space because we are at the marketplace. Looking at. Interesting. I was just throwing one thing bubbles will always exist our traditional Finance Financial Market on Capital Market in 3D so mature, but just 10 years ago there was a bubble on housing. And if today is Tesla, a bubble are all these spintech offend companies bubbles
in it, it will always exist and Bubbles, just simply indeflate, sometimes they go, sometimes they don't, and it's about managing them. The things that the illusion that we have an economics, is that there's always a steady-state, that's always an equilibrium, which the money supply cross each other. And there's this point that will always be the perfect. The perfect solution for everything, but his life is not like that, like, continuously change and you just have to accept that. There was no ever in the long run. That's where all this equilibrium happen but
in the long run, so just make sure they don't get sold. Balance. That's a good balance though, right? Any unicorns your senior head of you. Tell him I said I would just add, you know the hourly is not only the device, paper block in general. Is that everybody still focusing on the protocols? If you got to think about it that you want to that is everybody focused ECP IP protocol that support the internet that nobody today cares about at all. So I think I know we are at that's super early stages where,
you know, it's still thought thinking like, how does this would work? How does scales and only once we have that same place where this is a solid foundation, then we can talk about the Google Amazon or Facebook equivalents which will actually be products on top of the product course, they won't be the problem. Totally Anna and I just want to do that. I'm in 50% of the so-called yield farmers. Do not know what your farming is. Hey sis. How Olivia is just a money-maker that you go down? No wonder, no one knows. When you do for me is.
Okay, that was a great boy. Thank you so much. It sounded very, very optimistic. Occasionally I have to say, but that's, I guess because of the very diverse and interesting backgrounds of our families today. As much as I love those 1-hour panels. It all comes to an end eventually and I want to thank everyone for this and decide full conversation for this very again educational panel, and I thank you for being with us on that defied. A thank you for attending,
Uncle Bucks a week and I hope that 2020-2021 will bring us more great news in every space including device space. And I hope that that will get rid of that travel ban and eventually meet physically in Hong. Next year. Thanks everyone have a good rest of your day night and I'll see you soon in Hong Kong. Thank you.
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