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HK Blockchain Week 2020 - Fireside Chat: Charles Hoskinson x Juwan Lee

Charles Hoskinson
Founder at Cardano
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Hong Kong Blockchain Week 2020
November 16, 2020, Online, Hong Kong, China
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HK Blockchain Week 2020 - Fireside Chat: Charles Hoskinson x Juwan Lee
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About speaker

Charles Hoskinson
Founder at Cardano

Charles Hoskinson is a Colorado-based technology entrepreneur and mathematician. He attended Metropolitan State University of Denver and University of Colorado Boulder to study analytic number theory before moving into cryptography through industry exposure. His professional experience includes founding three cryptocurrency-related start-ups – Invictus Innovations, Ethereum and IOHK – and he has held a variety of posts in both the public and private sectors. He was the founding chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation’s education committee and established the Cryptocurrency Research Group in 2013. His current projects focus on educating people about cryptocurrency, being an evangelist for decentralization and making cryptographic tools easier to use for the mainstream. This includes leading the research, design and development of Cardano, a third-generation cryptocurrency that launched in September 2017.

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Our keynote speaker today needs no introduction. We are very excited to have with us today. Charles hoskinson, he has been involved in the world of blockchain and cryptocurrency since the early days of Bitcoin he's the founder of 3 lakh in Focus Stardust Invictus Innovation. Aetherium iohk is also the founding chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation education committee, as well as establishing the Bitcoin research group Charles, great to have you here. So, lovely to be here, mr. Lee, thank you so much for having a great. You have so

much influence in the world of blockchain. I've always wondered. What would the blockchain landscape? Look like or what is it? Would it be totally different if you were never born? What has been your main influence on this industry? That's a good question. Do you know what the point of decentralization is this a magic ability that you can remove any entity or any person? And the thing is still there and it's still vibrant and it's still resilient like the example, if we were to remove coinbase or blockstream or any of these other great companies, Bitcoin would still be around,

so it's truly think that Dan Larimer would be as involved in cryptocurrencies or had as much success if I wasn't around because he and I partnered with Invictus Innovations. And I was a guy part of the funding to get pictures where it needs to go. Give him his shot, you perhaps would have started a little bit later and missed that first wave. Etherium certainly wouldn't have been in Switzerland. The big thing that I brought that was choosing between Singapore and ask. What's the weather in? I said,

let's do Switzerland. So that it would have had a very different, the founding culture and obviously cardano wouldn't exist in a lot of the science that we've done over the last five. 90 papers that we've written in my research group, in the foundation of work, we've done none of that would exist in the Middle River. The Works would not exist or they would be in a much more scattered less focused. I guess my primary contribution is always been rallying. People I've being bring great people together and say that we really stressful to be really hard but it can be the best work of your career

and you're going to still going to join. You're going to love it. And after it's done, you're going to miss it. And I've done that to last eight years and it's been a heck of a lot of fun all the way through there are so many things that's happening in the blockchain space. But a topic that everybody's talking about is cerium is really slow. You mentioned in the past and I'll cook if they're in can't scale. None of his staff can the interesting need a system that gains resources of the game users and performs at the same level regardless of the people using it. Can you

elaborate on this? And how does this issue? Get a dress by Kodomo. It's a really complex issue and you can't completely solve it with just one protocol, so you kind of know what protocols scale. BitTorrent is a great example of that so it's all been a slightly different problem is the problem of data transmission, but when you're downloading a movie with BitTorrent, with lots of people, yes, you get faster. This is the exact opposite of a lot of protocols were it when you gain users, you have less resources for everybody. So Bitcoin, ethereum Ripple, all these other systems, they're all

examples of systems that are replicated. So the only have a finite pool of resources for your user set. So as you get more and more users, you get less and less resources for everybody. So we want to do if you want creep. Protocols that over time. As you gain, users, you gain more capabilities. The problem is that when you do that, you have to go from a system where everybody is equal to a system where there's some what we call his rich and Eddie. So it means that certain Actors have special capabilities over other actors. You'll have to solve things like availability, for example,

certain resources may be offline when you need them. So you can't download your movie or you can't get your transaction to post or they can't find your account to that resource comes back online. Does a very, very, very hard problem and it's something that Bitcoin didn't try to solve in the first generation of aetherium didn't try to sell. Now, the tallaght with S2 is trying to solve that we actually have a freaking strategy as well for cardano where we say, okay? Just build a pool of resources that's large enough for a big set of users, millions of users and that's probably good for your

first generation. And if it's very heavily into side chains and state channels and these types of Technologies and that stuff is going to get you to Millions to billions of transactions per day, okay? And what's your there? Then you're probably not going to need to go to exceed Visa scale or Mastercard scale out for a while and then you can start micro focusing on certain things like Network utilization and data. Rosacea in these types of things. But the only way you're ever going to solve it is you have to solve it systematically. And you have to solve it involving the academic

community and the systems Community. There's people whose day job that working Google and at Microsoft and Amazon and Facebook and they deal with these massive scale systems with billions of users and they have these great protocols and really it's a game of how do we translate those protocols to work from centralized data centers to fully distributed systems. The Ouroboros research agenda for cardano. Started that process where we found out how to have a consensus algorithm that has the price goes up it gets more decentralized every time then because it's more centralized has more

consensus notes in the system. You can be in bed within them State channels and other services, then each and every one of those can actually accelerate the system. Let's go to Stage 1. No F2 decided to do everything all at once. We're there also, starting the state space in The Ledger and these other things, and try to figure all that out, and it's much, much, more ambitious, and it's not clear if you actually Kept getting a better product, you actually lose security you go from about half Byzantine resistant to 1/3 to a quarter depending on how you do it and just be super

careful with generation, random numbers with your clock. And if you're getting off a little bit, the network will collapse or not synchronize properties. We've seen with a lot of their failed tests. That that's why we chose a month for a reasonable approach. That was validated by years of systems, theory that can scale up to what we think is necessary for like 5 or 10 years of massgrowth, like millions of people coming in, and it gives the industry a bit more time to mature on Charlotte Russe State channels, in these other techniques, which will inevitably allow us to get to Millions

to billions, which is where we're going to go as an industry, as a whole, will be ready for it just in time. And we won't have to make any sacrifices or experience. No years and years of delays because the stuff blows up in our face You mentioned something about F2 and, you know, you and very vocal obviously about his shortcomings. Now I want you to say something positive. What did they do? Well, well, I'm under the impression, you know, I cannot fault a project for trying to shoot for the moon cuz you don't get there. You leave a legacy. There's a lot of cool things that

etherium got started. Like, they started the smart contract Revolution. They really started pushing zero-knowledge, proof some for computation, like with their to strategic investments in Stark, where they refunded millions of dollars of Grants to plasma. And so State channels really started evolving, that stated art starting pushed out, and they're also is provoking the conversation of. How do you sharpen a blockchain? What does that look like? What is it architecture? Look like, even if they fail, it's incredibly valuable to the research Community to the engineering community spaces, a

whole kind of learn from what they're doing. Is he, you always have to figure out how I'm Bishops. Do you want to be as an entrepreneur? It's like this vaccine race for Yeah, we have all these companies that want to make coronavirus vaccine and some of them are betting on super state-of-the-art super Advanced Techniques and other ones are going with like tried-and-true viral Vector techniques that we've been doing since the smallpox vaccine. So the question is, how much Innovation can you afford giving your time budget in the nature of the industry? Is the same situation was

cryptocurrencies. You have to kind of decide where we going to be in three to five years and is your technological Vision going to help you get there? Or is it going to hinder you from getting there? I'm skeptical that what they've done is going to get them where they need to go. But I'm optimistic that what they're doing is actually beneficial for everybody in the industry because we can all learn from that we've already seen huge amounts of great research. Mvds for example, because of aetherium, we've seen a lot of great discussions about consensus protocols in the proof of stake space

because of aetherium. They provide a lot of academic funding in particular at Stanford and other places and that's just beneficial for everybody because all that work ends up in the open source community. You know what I found with every expert I've ever talked to doesn't Evolution and thinking because when you spend thousands and thousands of hours on the same topic you evolve and thinking and that's what's great about, you know, any expert in any industry. Recently, you were quoting that the governor's component is a single hardest component of all cryptocurrencies.

I'm sure this relate to little bit, see what you're doing with Altair. Can you tell us what you mean by this? And why is it so important now? Well, if you ever want to be decentralized, you have to find a way to pay for the evolution of your system. And if you rely upon patrons, what happens is a small group of well-capitalized, actors and up, basically co-opting the road map of ecosystem. We see this action with web standards for example, there's a recent fight with Google having some influence over the w3c and other standards bodies to inject ads into the browser as a web standard and

people Play braver saying, well, this is a bad deal. What are you guys doing? So, there's this concept of the golden rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules. So you really don't want a small group of external actors coming in Coop. What are the problem is that if you want to have the alternative or use the blockchain to pay for its own stuff? You have a lot of complexity there like who decides that? How do you petition that? How do you vote on that? What is a fervo, what level of participation do you need? How are people going to be informed? They do these types of things, and that's just on

the money side. Then you have the change management side, which is okay. And we have big block, your little block that Rodger. Forget something to say about that. And that's why we have Bitcoin cash, it's over. Or should we do this actually reverse it? Or should we keep it? I had something to say about that. Now we have etherium classic, cigars is super hard because what do you do when you have irreconcilable differences? Well, if the solution is every time we have them the system. Split you won't get any Fortune 500 adoption or government adoption is they Want to join a system where every

three years the system splits. And if they don't pick the right side, they have a million people attacking them over Twitter, right? It's a very problematic thing. So, you have to build government systems that allow you to even under controversial situations and people to accept the change. And by the way, you we've never saw this completely in person. Look at the United States right now, we just had a presidential election. One candidate thinks he's won the other candidates that he's one and there's a big fight going on right now. And you

are one side, 71 million. The other half is going to be very, very angry and it's effectively a cultural for in the community building system to give you a clear. We're at SNL actively for the Fidelity of that system. So it's a super super hard promised wife at Alec and others have actually eschewed it and said, hey but I'm going to think about it. But I think it's absolutely essential for 3rd Generation cryptocurrency cuz you can never be centralized and fire your Founders. Without it is you'll just trade one small group of powerful

actors and curators for another group of powerful actors in curators. We never decentralised and get to a system where actually controlled by millions of independent people, as opposed to a dozen guys, in a room who you can feed with two pizzas, that's why we wanted it to tackle, that head-on with cardano, and we've had just great progress, we have over 3,500 people and ideas scale, which is innovation as your partner were working. With every day, they were voting on things and we're just turning on a lot of the voting capabilities were measuring KP eyes. Like, you wouldn't believe like

level of participation. How many hours? He's been to the platform, the types of conversations. They're having how ideas flow. How do you say ski? Rational, ignorance? It's been just an amazing experience, and we keep bringing domain experts on. So after we achieve a certain level we can bring governance and policy experts in sociology, experts in organizational psychology. The management experts and overtime, you can build up a corpus of best practices and then eventually Community will actually get off those training wheels and be able to run the whole system themselves and pay for

the needs of the system. And also decide how to change the system as being cover, Raider challenges, like quantum computers and other such things in the future. Oh that's right. You're there so many trans that I see this happening in 2020 that are very interesting. One. Getting tremendous amount as everybody is talking about now. How do you compare this to maybe what you've already seen with the evolution of crypto? Where do you see if I don't eat? We throw words on top of things cuz it makes them sexier and more,

that's the whole. But everybody's been trying to do stablecoins and decentralized exchanges and Oracle over these other things since the beginning of the industry. In fact, that was my very first project with Dan Larimer bitshares was all about. How do you create a stable coin and also trade that for the other Assets in kind of a decentralised way and we also you can talk about Oracle respect and that was back in 2013. So nothing new is just formalized it in a way that it's much more investable and so much more Understandable for Laman, but basically the idea is that we'd like to take

Banking and insurance and we'd like to take a monetary policy and these things and create applications that don't require social curation or corporations to run them. The problem with you far as it stands right now is that the people who build the systems, don't pay for the mistakes. When the systems don't work. That's a moral hazard because they usually get paid up front or get a big boost of money from the appreciation of the asset and then they liquidate. So they're not vested in the system anymore and then when the system blows up and it's the other investors who have to clean

up the mess Indies, guys walk away. It's a Lots, open source code and so forth. So what happens when you have these moral hazard to market failures? The same thing with the Ico Revolution, it tends to invite Regulators to come in. That would be fine. You'll have Regulators of a different kind. You'll have people where you lot more about, compliance, know your customer and money laundering and terrorist financing. I think about Securities regulations. Are they think about special security, circulations, like the regulations of derivatives or an options, the regulations of Commodities

like, cftc stuff. And then of course, you have Bank secrecy and all these other things that will apply here looking for an American viewpoint. But, you know, foreign Regulators, look at things, usually in a similar way. So defy brings a lot of challenges, but a lot of opportunities. And actually I think the primary consumer of these is not online yet so where in Africa is Ethiopia and all throughout the continent and there's a billion plus people there in about eight hundred million of them are either unbanked or our sub fact, they don't have the financial identity economic identity that

they need Defy is really the solution for them because then they don't have to worry about their local banking just as their local Insurance system. They don't have to worry too much about their local currencies are capital controls. They can secure a tight, their businesses, they can get rule of law because it's code enforced at basically to run their things. They were conducting lots of experiments there. Had to basically prove that out. And by the way, the incumbent regulations just simply don't apply or too weak to be able to have anything to say about that. Why things like and paste it,

for example, caught Africa by storm. So I think Defy is right now solution in search of a consumer and continents, like, Africa are consumers in search of a solution and we haven't had that peanut butter jelly moment where they come together and everything just kind of gets magical, but I think within the next three years to five years, all that going to happen at your teeth tens of millions of customers. The really going to have a lot of impact and prom. Watching a really important point, which is real use cases for blockchain, right? That's very important.

And what we saw a lot payment services in 2020 as the number transaction on blockchain. Kris significantly, people are trapped at home and many businesses are going. Digital has had a large impact, or how has had an impact on the Block industry. Pfizer announced that they have a miracle backseat. My dad's a doctor, and my brother is a doctor and my uncles and infectious disease doctor. My grandfather was a Doctor, Who's are we do? And we have lots of doctors, the fellow. I was the alcohol came of that position and you have you talked to any of them

or any physician for that matter and say have a vaccine with low side effects and 90% efficacy is that good, they'll say that's one of the best ever made you knocked out of the You went golfing, you got three holes in. What? You just don't see that very often in in medicine, so most people would be super excited about that. I posted it on my Twitter feed, the vast majority of comments. There were, it's a Bill Gates, New World, Order conspiracy, or the vaccines going to change your DNA or, you know, it's convenient is not real vaccines cause cancer autism. So, that's one thing that the

election system is. Another example of that were people don't believe. Somebody's want people believe that all kinds of things about covid. Some probably true, some not true. The point is truth is in short supply. Belief is in short supply and still watching as a technology class is the ante institution in that. He comes in when the institution doesn't have trust and credibility. Nobody, the world put the washing system it if they just trust their government, they trust everybody and there's no waste fraud or abuse and you don't need a lot of ability, you put it in because it forces

you to behave. Honestly transparently and also show people that you've done that, you can prove these things that can be Supply, chains that can be research funding, that could be political donations. That can be voting, that can be money systems and everybody's treated the same. Bill Gates gets treated the same way as the poor guy on the street. Nobody get special access to that protocol our system, the founder of aetherium about her car. Oh, I have exactly equal access in these systems to any other user. I don't get any special keys or oversight in that respect, okay? So First Trust

is in short supply, so there's a big appetite for how do we restore that without a civil war or a purge or dictatorship, or whatever and people table, maybe blockchain is a great antidote for that. Second to your point, a lot of people have much more time. Is it really sit down and philosophically? Think about life. You know, we have all these distractions in life, you know, we go fishing and we go to concerts and movie theaters, and drinking, and rest. I know we're home. We're all exam, Masters, because we got nothing to do. You look at the download rate of the calm meditation, app through

the rough. Look at the amount of podcast that are being watched, Joe Rogan, write 60 * 5/4 /, Wild Bill to get microphones like Yeti microphones and other things on Amazon. Because so many people were buying microphone equipment and webcams. Everything's communicate with each other or online. So, this is a huge surge of people into a state where they had the time to start breaking out of their bubble and thinking about the world differently and what are the primary concerns people had this year was Financial. People were very worried about their

stocks. People are very worried about their financial future, millions of people lost her job and I said, oh God how, how am I going to survive? Where should I put my money? And so people will start to look for alternative Investments. So we saw a big spike and gold consumption in silver consumption. But we also saw a huge amount of interest in cryptocurrencies. They said, oh my God, if this gets really bad, there were just printed six trillion dollars in the United States. What happens if they take money out of my bank account? Like, Cypress, I should probably put my money in a place that

they can't freeze it and they can take it and it's probably going to go up. So that's why you saw a huge surge after lockdown, Tappan of Google searches for Bitcoin, and for crypto-currencies, and a huge influx of people at the closest off. About such a big topic, how to cope with change? Everything it change, people's relationships with each other, you know, I traveled 200, 250 days a year to run my company. I've come to Korea from Hong Kong to Singapore and Japan in Mongolia that goes straight down Australia to go to fly out to Europe and I'd be in London

in France and Germany and Italy and the 4th and so I kept traveling and travelling or traveling and now all of a sudden I'm in a situation where I'm stuck. So all the tools and techniques are used to have to motivate people to directly engage with People relate to people have changed a lot. One of his wife Zoom is right now more valuable than ExxonMobil. It's like certain Winters come out of Paradigm. And so cryptocurrencies are another example of that where it's, it's given my organization. And me personally, a reflection on how to work with people remotely, not just in

communication, but in Commerce and payments and these other things that again, Block Chain is a native digital technology like all of these things that live in the internet, they're going to benefit from that new workflow that I have in my company has other people have and allows you to just have deep work and focus. We can really get serious on things and drove down. So we see more Innovation this year in the watching space then I think any other year we see more code written this year in the blockchain space than any other year and we seen a lot more serious consideration of these things

and it really starting to have a convergence I think 2021 is going to be one of our best years as a consequence. Well, that's great. So, put on your crystal ball and then give us some main ground and groundbreaking outside or down in the coming years of hat. Puebla channel for the world for blockchain. I think that there are three Miracles that are going to over the time work their way into our industry and they're going to change a lot of things. One, we're going to see proof of stake in this class of

consensus, algorithms get deeply embedded in a massive transfer from proof-of-work, native systems to hybrid or to cure proof-of-stake system just because there's such efficiency gains and scalability games and cost reduction for running these types of things. So suddenly that opens up a whole new class of problems from payments, the coyote, to other things that you can do on watching. So that's going to continue and the academic research is clear. I mean you got Al Gore and tezos and cardano and Cosmos and pulse not an S2 and all of these projects are actually back by academic

papers and tens of thousands of citations and scientists are thinking about these things and you just have a bunch of people say they can't work it. Schedule, emotion cuz reasons and they never actually can form a actual scientific argument for us uci's, Theory, work, and what are we doing? Are we on these terrible systems? And so unless you have useful proof-of-work, there's just no future there. Guess that's one big change. Will see a sea-change of both people in value and applications in the next three years. August 2nd, I think your knowledge

cryptography is growing exponentially, you know, everywhere you look, you got Marlon and plunk and Spartan and sonic Wii created that one. And then you have fractal and dark. So I can stay called supersonic. How you got all of this stuff, right? And starts as well from you. I've been fastened. So that's just beginning. And every 6 months, I see a new paper coming in soon. He'll be every 3 months and every time the system's get better, they have much more sophisticated and elegant math in them like class groups and that means you don't need to have trust set up to get much more efficient and

optimize many catches you can paralyze the What does this mean for industry? Two things, one it's going to really enhance the Privacy side, but it doesn't necessarily mean you give up regulation because you can in bed within the transaction are no oversight but to and more importantly, it just going to massively through scalability because we see structures. You can have full notes security with a light client, so you can throw away the whole blockchain and it has some projects even trying to do this, like the code of protocol. For example, you throw the whole lot. Anyways, I don't

know, I don't care, it just haven't proof. And anytime you see, if transaction come, you can check it against, you know, that the coins are real and they haven't been double spent great. So what does that mean? It means that we can have our blockchain system. Scale 2 petabytes 2 exabytes. They could be as big as the Googleplex and you as a user will get the same security as if you have the whole storage. Even though you only have like a kilobyte or megabyte or however larger crew stack happens to be so that you just two things that will come from What's your all's Revolution? As it's

pushing its way through an additional smart contract scalability and a Litany of other things, I see the third big thing regulated out of existence, but because treasury systems are not illegal. They're not a security there actually, an emergency of the monetary policy of the system's you're going to wake up until we have dozens of watching that are printing tens to hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars every year for their growth and development. What does that mean? It means that established companies

that brand names. You've heard will come into our industry because they want some of that money and they'll just start submitting ballots actually doing work and suddenly will see a common vocation for developers and consultancies to be working for lodging. So instead of working for some Foundation or working for a software company like Microsoft, you might end up working for the car. I love watching full-time and that's your day job and actually have a Cycle counter party there and that might be sustainable. And if that's the case, then we now have a funding mechanism for the

evolution of Open Source infrastructure. We've never had that before you have it from one of the Premier thought leaders in the blockchain space and I will say you are way too humble earlier, when I asked you, what boxing would it look like if you were ever born? I think it would look vastly different. You had a major contribution. Thank you so much for giving us your inside today and, you know, enjoy the great weather in Colorado. Thank you so much. You want to thank you so much for the invitation to the conference. I had a lot of fun.

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