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FOSSASIA Summit 2021
March 20, 2021, Online, Singapore
FOSSASIA Summit 2021
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Saviour or downfall? Corporate sponsors and what happens when a F/OSS project abandons F/OSS.
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About the talk

When a for-profit corporation either hires most of the developers of a popular F/OSS project and then convinces them to continue developing under a non-FOSS license, or takes something that it built from the outset as a F/OSS project and shifts to a non-F/OSS license after it becomes popular, what should happen?
Our panel explores past examples, what's worked, what hasn't, and what could be done better in future.

About speakers

Roland Turner
Chief Privacy Officer, Labs Director at TrustSphere
Bruce Perens
Principal at Open Source Definition
Andre Rebentisch
Project Manager at NFON
Harish Pillay
Head, Community Architecture and Leadership at Red Hat
Karen Sandler
Executive Director at Software Freedom Conservancy

Roland is Chief Privacy Officer for TrustSphere where he is responsible for the company's information policy and practices. He is a HackerspaceSG founding member and FOSSASIA organiser, holds a Computer Science degree from UTS, and is an avid dancer, runner, and ham radio operator with a particular interest in space.

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Bruce Perens was the second Debian Project Leader (DPL). He was the first to distribute the "base system" to a geographically distributed set of developers - when nobody knew that would work. Ian Murdock had maintained the entire base system on his own. By distributing development this way, and for other innovations while he was DPL, he is said to be creator of the modern Linux distribution. He also created Busybox (and thus embedded Linux), for the Debian installer. He was the principal author of the Debian Social Contract and the Debian Free Software Guidelines, which became the Open Source Definition. He was one of the founders of Software in the Public Interest.

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André Rebentisch is an expert in European regulatory affairs for all things digital. In the past 20 years, he represented multiple FOSS and SME stakeholders in open standards and interoperability policy and other areas. At present, he works as an Agile Programme Manager for a German telecommunications company. In his leisure time, he recently passed the challenge to install Windows on an old Linux DELL computer within only 2 weeks.

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Experienced ethical technologist with a demonstrated history of working in the computer software industry. Skilled in Python, C, Security, Enterprise Architecture, and Virtualization. Strong engineering professional with a Masters in Electrical and Computer Engineering from Oregon State University. These are augmented with skills in International Arbitration, Internet security and Open Source Metrics (chaoss.community) which help to roll up to being a Tech Ethicist.

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Karen M. Sandler is the executive director of the Software Freedom Conservancy, which is the nonprofit home of many projects, including Git, Samba, QEMU, Selenium and Inkscape (to name a few). She is known as a cyborg lawyer for her advocacy for free software as a life-or-death issue, particularly in relation to the software on medical devices. Prior to joining Conservancy, she was the executive director of the GNOME Foundation. Before that, she was the general counsel of the Software Freedom Law Center. Karen co-organizes Outreachy, the award-winning outreach program for people who face under-representation, systemic bias, or discrimination in tech . Karen is an adjunct Lecturer-In-Law at Columbia Law School. She is the recipient of the Free Software Foundation's 2017 Award for the Advancement of Free Software as well as an O'Reilly Open Source Award.

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Okay, I believe we are all here in one form or another. So I'm going to go ahead and introduce the next session which is a very fascinating topic that I think everyone's going to enjoy. We have a great group of panelist than a very talented moderator to join us and presents are panelist to us and he'll explain it in more detail. But the central idea of the conversation for the next hour is the idea what happens when a corporate sponsor comes into an open source project project and sponsors developers to work on the project. But then what happens, if that same

sponsor decide to start producing software and run on free software license, what can we do about what happened? And so it's my pleasure to introduce our analyst for today. Well, known in the tech world as a cyborg lawyer for her advocacy, for free software. As a life-or-death issue, particularly in relation to software on medical devices. Very well known as the second of Debian project leader. And more importantly, perhaps as the principal author of The Debbie and social contract and the Debbie and free stuff for guidelines, which evolved into something that most people have

heard of called the open-source definition, he's also the co-founder of the software in the public interest organization as well. Next up, we got Andre rabbit dish from the foundation for a free information infrastructure is an expert in European digital Regulatory Affairs and when he's not busy doing that, his day job is working at a German telecommunications company. NeXT got Harris, play from Red Hat based in Singapore, a very well-known face around the age of conferences from year to year to have the kids and had a lot of experience Internet Security and development attack

at the cyst and an internet Pioneer, we're very happy. And then finally, our moderator for the panel, I'm very pleased to introduce Roland Turner is the Chief privacy officer for trust for your trust spear member of the process of the organising team that we've seen for many years around the events. And a founding member of hackerspace SG, Singapore's Premier hackerspace a little bit more and take it away. So as with most question to ask this one's going to be able to

dig the, the motivating event was the recent decision by elastic to change the license under which they make this will start blessed search available. This is not any grievance with elastic to do with. As you wish, you could get to be so hard for the creative urge when something like that happens, the question that I want to ask. How do I get to answer? It's cuz my parents have some really amazing idea that it brought them a question. The question I want to ask you what is it? That should happen. When an organization makes this Choice

with aspects of his software that can be done to help to mitigate the impact. Or did you just a likelihood that and the fact that I had my privacy and Rye book about the power imbalance between institutions such as corporations and individuals, make some progress on the motivating question for the station. If we can. So what I'll do is open with an initial question to each of the panelists carefully, chocolate and then the rest of the vision, the Rolling Stone a including

ongoing relationship questions from the audience. I do that with you. The Exchange, the plants you expressed a concern that. Africa. She packs be broader than just licenses. That has a bunch of other concerns that we can about. Should be concerning ourselves with us. Yeah, I'd like to write a very much interested in lots of pictures and bothered. Now, license thing at the free-throw line is mainstream, is like the default choice of many industry. Still doesn't always translate into degrees of freedom. And I know that say free software. Mattox, they can then

the Four Freedoms. A question is really doesn't match the Contemporary strikeouts when it comes Liberties of developers. I mean, lots of developers. What are they struggling with play? Struggling with life is a story views off the off, the little apps that I controls exercise, but he's gay. To its stores. Certificates you need to buy and well and don't let this you can say. Yeah. The way the smartphone, but not everyone wants to do that and rather be a store say, throw away Electronics. We don't want electrons Axia. So where are

you from New Freedom span and platform. Everything is open source, software and still, you don't have access to it. You cannot use your own software on your device. Areas, like at Electronics, when maybe they're also good. Regular for reasons, not to enable you to think of whiskey. Driving cars, but still like to see the hats on on the political science discussion on export controls for software tools. Like the ones used by Sam Fisher, which was very prominent in the Arab Spring. Yeah, them anything or the fundamental problem

And you already mentioned, the Privacy debate. Yeah. Well we know have commotion bottles of smart devices. Smartphones based on what critics called surveillance capitalism. Well, all sorts of media, consumption of users is being monitored and a true. Also, as a contemporary the bay, the whole me to question off of sexually, predatory behavior in the workplace of female professionals that struggle with the freedom to court together. The proper respect and behavior in the workplace.

Of course, always and ever commercial viability of the elephant in the room was already put on the stage, has elected last exceptional and yam. Also the conditions to think about where Lexie's, original free software and Concepts emerged from a privileged environment in Academia, where you have. Yeah, Operations that are already got the paycheck and don't have to struggle for that everyday living conditions and what they say as a shin off licensing conditions and we very much appreciate it. So, surprising that the whole idea of safe source code disclosure and general did not take

act or no, maybe even receives less distraction. I think of the debates around Chatsworth policy, but they for a company like Microsoft, it wouldn't be rushed at this stage to say, open source software products, like, Microsoft Office, or Outlook, which would make sense for the train to date. Now that we have that like, in BC Commerce chapters Provisions against Costco's to spell OSHA mandatory source code. Scotia by the state, which maybe is a very good idea but still

by helping each other in two Dimensions that I brought it in just a license language. Yes, I think that the I really dislike a pimply butt, if it's very fortunate to get to necessarily the same concerns as I got to the building that will come quick question for you on something out of the licensing but still really quite like yours. I have to talk about, I have to answer the bigger question for a second, that's okay. And I want to tell her I said, which is, you know, I think that

traditionally participants in the free and open source. Stop our communities have had a lot of privilege that had a lot of power. And and I think I promise the stuff for Freedom was that we were going to democratize technology, right? Like what but suffer Freedom was going to give people the opportunity to cut them myself or wherever they were until it wherever they are to make it, you know, I could customize the software for my heart to buy so that it would be okay to be pregnant with a heart device write like the promise of stuff for free is that we have that but power and that we're

going to bring that to everyone but in actuality we haven't necessarily done that supper Freedom hasn't necessarily democratize technology. Part of the reason why Haven't done that. Is that those of us with our privileged have not leveraged, our privileged enough, in order to make sure that what you described never happens. And we can make sure that it never happens if every free and open source software developer that has the power to do. So insist, on certain things in the projects, and the technology that they contribute to. And that goes across the board. One is copyleft really goes a

long way in this. There is, you know, there are a lot of, you know, details to that. But he left to strong car dealers. License really helps making sure that a project has good governance from the outset that there's a real Level Playing Field if you like avoid aggravating copyright because a company that doesn't have all the copyrights can't put it with their license in the same way. And if you must aggravate, your license is, you know, then then do so in a nonprofit that That's a good governance that you established earlier, you know.

So so they're all of these ways that we can help keep companies and check and we should we also should take a more holistic approach, like, Andre is suggesting and that's one of the reasons why I co-authored a declaration of digital autonomy with Molly to Blanc. How much is just a first draft? But I'll drop the link to the chat for anyone who's interested for taking feedback. Now, where we can, we must, you know, talk about how all of these except for freedom is necessary but it is not sufficient. So, you know, I think they're all these ways. We should never allow ourselves to be in this

position because we have the power to make sure that companies behave in a way that we find acceptable and where we've been able to exercise that power. We've avoided some of these worst case scenario is another way that I think that we can leverage that privilege is on an individual basis and that's what rolling his tip me off today, which is a time I'm working on a an initiative to help developers better other contributors better understand their employment agreements When you're on their way into a company, you have an opportunity to negotiate that agreement. A lot of people

don't know that I want you do, you can put things in your agreement like I, you know, it's part of my job. I will be working on free and open source software only, or I can keep the copyrights of my contributions. It could also be much smaller than that. Like I did keep a copy of the things that I work on outside of my employment, which unfortunately is not the case everywhere. And so these Agreements are almost always somewhat negotiable and people don't know that. And so contract patch is an initiative were literally reading patches that you can ask for in your employment

agreement but also just to help people better understand those agreements so that they can negotiate it while we're in the process and haven't published anything. I have lost count of the number of developers who have said that they have managed to get all of the things. I just named in their employment agreement. Everyone has done everything, but but many have gotten multiple. Provisions included, so that's really encouraging. Western Society has been here before and the consequences were spectacular reason to push that

and we simply don't have time today. But I, I would invite you to a resort expecting metaphor for me being transformed, how I understand what you working on. I like to just for the chickens talk about the resource extraction and approaches open source, is from the Paradigm of a resource extraction company. So these would-be companies that mine or cut down the woods to make Lumber etcetera. So they have a public resource. It's not one that they own which they harvest and they choose a PR. So, you'll notice

it, for example, of Linux Foundation is pretty much the main and to be speaking for open source and when I look at the list of the steering Board of that organization. I see the most exploitive companies of open-source steering the organization. Some of whom were, for example, in Printers of Open Source. License has some of whom actually work against the open-source community in government and standards. For example, the Qualcomm guy, who's on the Line-X Foundation board works for royalty bearing

patents in standards, when people like myself, others from the open-source initiative are representing open source or attempting to on the same organization in and saying, we need standards that don't have patent royalties in them. So there's this big tension and so we need to stop the loggers speaking for the trees, okay? We are the trees and those companies are the loggers. The other thing I want to talk about is lots of value 8, our mission achievement and Karen sort of touched on this, when she said, you know, we don't serve

the average person. We really don't. We don't fulfill their needs with not liberated them from these exploit of companies etcetera. What we have done is we have achieved the goals of business for open source. We have not achieved the goals of people leave, not Serve the People except for maybe 5% in all the world and from that perspective, open source has a failure. And then when I say, open-source free software open source, same thing. And so I think that

we've done a great job to the business world, but we need to prove it. And one thing we should be considering is the initial announcement of the canoe project went out on HughesNet. There was no internet, I was at work and I read it, this was it in September of 1983. So we've been working on the same thing for 37 years and we should have learned more by now. Consider, there were no cell phones. The car phone took up most of your trunk, the most complicated

input devices. Most people's homes was either a dial or a touch-tone pad. There was no. You could not have thought about Amazon eating the lunch of elastic and we are still working with the Paradigm 37 years ago and we need to consider well, what were our goals? Thanks in. And why are we not achieving them? And what comes after open-source because maybe it's time for something to come in after open source and free software and that doesn't mean we abandon them. What we do is we

preserve them and we preserve the promises of free software and open source as they exist today. And we provide those developers away to transition through, do licensing into a paradigm that doesn't have Amazon, eating your lunch. That gives freedom and free software to the people. We most need to serve who are individuals not the richest companies in the world that sometimes charges, the deep-pocket companies for things and not also charges for some abusive uses, for example, embedded software,

and digital Rights Management and Performing our software-as-a-service without adding additional value. These are the abusive uses and some of those developers should be paid for them. And if they were paid for them, they could focus more on helping the average person because they'd have the money and the time to work on the average person's needs and the motivation, and that doesn't exist. Well, either we mostly write software for each other rather than for everyone else in the world. So tired, I'm working on it's called Post open

and there's a program on YouTube under my name. It's just the first step to medication for depression depose. Before. If you had no questions or by the hour, we will have plenty, but I do specific. They want to come back to you on some very sure if you have the distinction of being the only one of us who is this hooked up with a specific program of change? Bubbles, in a cup engagement. I'm not sure what I can do about it, wasn't you? Can you remind me what your question does not have computer? Which one are you?

Should happen. I don't mean what should a steak do. What what should I'mma going to do? What you do. You but it seems her how we would like to see what I was. Thinking I can make connections a major computer to open source which one Receptor. What did I do to you? So do what you have to do with that and that's what should happen to reduce the likelihood of future changes. Order me to get their things. Yeah, thanks. I will email you in a place in within the group of people together and with our business that is so of smack in the middle of hell of a lot of other things

happening. And what we are trying to medicate is the choppy. Seas of, you know, different fruits and foods are pupusas in place of interest, and the trying to be as honest and true to the open-source ideas, everything that we could do to be staying on track. Because if I lost it as an example, as a, as a something to talk about Google challenge with any of these things, at the end of the day, is that a dependency? Grows up? In what particular set of Technologies and the dependency is now based on as opposed to any

NFL necessarily Sanctuary at project golden lot more people and then started to email address to beauty and everything was happy that the other one is the last day, all those who have done the same kind of two centered in terms of Licensing and nurses PRN. So I sense that when something becomes too large company or open source project becomes to last week. That's when you have a problem. And I think that's where we are in some of these projects because we are broke and that's

probably where problem and are fond of you speaking as a principal speaking for it at every single day how do we make sure we are always honest to the goals, total freedom and yet try to generate a business that is accountable to the customer. Everybody's fine line and it's not easy. I don't believe he insisted this. It's a lot of work, a lot of effort, I do not understanding and talking to people and then there will be those who would come with it or what about this a lot about that. I got discrepancy. Let's focus on what we trying to

achieve and Emily. I like you too. Babe, that's fine. Just specifically this. How do we do this? And are you doing it to extend a? We claim that you're doing and what everybody in general agrees, right? I know everybody that sleep well, and say you're being honest about it. Sometimes change their minds as with any way to consume each other people that I'm just leaving other individuals with him. What's the number to dress motives for Mammoth 55 minute session? Is this gentleman in

one of the joys and running a conversation, if you don't have to do that. And if we can open your eyes now, and now it's one, exit, 29 minutes each on the objective of the regulars that they showing the risks of concerned about. And then finally, the limitations the measures that we might take two to think of what particular the opening where you coming from, it is what are the values of the objectives that that you see is important for the supper and software

You caught me while I was taking a screenshot to show off that. We are having this awesome panel. So hit me again with the question. I was just about to comment on how great you're doing, moderating the translator. The first of the what's, what is a, what is a good thing to hear about? What what do you, what do you think we'd like to see the next year if I didn't use one of them? Yeah, I mean, I think that like, we're at this inflection point in the free and open source software Community where

we realized we we we are are are seeing our early successes Wayne and we are wondering why we have not succeeded as much since then. And I think, I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I don't know how to put this in a, in a, in a super nice way, which makes me feel at all comfortable. But I feel like a lot of people who were passionate about suffer Freedom, saw the, you know, saw the promise of it where where people who contributed, as hobbyists and as idealist, and then they got jobs and

they were, we're in a hurry and get paid on it and still push for the thing that they cared about and what happened, what is that? So many of those people want that making small compromises overtime and an end, didn't recognize the fact that the interests of their paycheck, we're not necessarily interest of the ideology. And I think we're now at the point where it's simply plane that we can't reconcile those two things, all of the time like it, we could never. It is a

completely then which and then yeah, we need to go right back to ideology like people talk about sustaining open-sourced, but I have never. And it's important, that people be able to survive. And it's important that maintainers be able to, to stay focused and, and make a salary. I agree with those points, but ideology as sustainability, extremely powerful, when people must still at Conservancy we, we hire dozens of developers to work on our member project on every year. And then we also hire, you know, around a hundred interns every

year to work on Outreach projects and having people who are paid through charitable nonprofit to work on there. For supper project is a really powerful thing because the interest that those two Lovers or their contributors, cuz I all developers are working for the ends that they're working for are in the public good. And because they're being paid through charity. They can't make as much money as they might make the required actor. But the roadmap that they're working on is established by everyone and it is to make the use of that technology better over time for all. And so I said

it's a different way that we can start thinking about it and I, you know, I'm proud that we've been doing that with and Conservancy I think we mentioned a whole bunch of things that, but I'm working on that a very pragmatic. There is no contact pastors. Also, you do a circle organizations, you know, I think it's been very powerful to see what happened to Google with are organizing. And, and I think that, you know, when I was in college, I was sworn into the order of the engineer, which is a Especially with started in Canada, but I went to

undergrad in the United States, but I swore that I had, and I understood that, I had an ethical obligation in my engineering work, and that lives were at stake. And I think that if we had ethical Society is ethical obligations. If we thought about the ultimate, you know, against me not to do that. But I think you said something specifically that we have a lot of ideally much like other people who are working on stuff, it is explicitly mission-based and

that building, is structured around pursuing that objective rather than the machine that Jose Corporation to build to the to do. You might like less money to do that but it serves the public good and it's easier to sustain over the long run, you're not raising as much money and then you're also broadening the base so you know, you're always so you know like see where the money's coming from. Right. You. Look at all of these organizations that I put in the chat the IRS or did he just take a look at where the money is coming from, in these organizations and how close? And you can see

that organizations that are you know are are set up around this kind of model have really good, you know public support. They are getting small donations from a lot of individuals and it's it looks different. The motivation is different and if we can put a lot more developers in this mechanism, will start to see some really interesting things. I love people's getting things. I had never eaten. They're Inseparable. It's fine. What are the values that you want to see elevated? Yeah

I'm afraid I cannot compete with the longest entry-level. That's wonderful of metaphor and also Karen shared, nice. Manifesto of course there are lots of Manufacturers and I think that should be a thousand flowers of ideas that people who could bring for lunch and I cannot be fixed catalog to let me do something for you or a bunch of perspective. Yeah, I'm trying to bring up an iceberg. The phone just one, the one that struck the Titanic and I would like to stress that the focus on 4/20 conditions sometimes the

iceberg and when we consider the larger of the unregulated than or equal system that characterizes typical free and open source software development environment, We get we get lots of things that were not regulated, that will not respond for instance. Very simple example, license is attached to not specify that you ought to have a papa. I'm working in the commercial software company. Yes, we have support. What? We don't have a public fax Wrecker with anyone on the internet can create and license is to not specify that anyone can

download the coach in free software license. They don't say, you can download everything from the internet, just happens, or even check out to get some clothes that you had to provide to provide a bonding offer to provide. Which muscle would it was CDs Big Mouth around it. It'll be adequate discharge of obligation to make the thing really available in a public place where I can fix remains Go. Download those kinds of words, what you'd like to see how about the mechanism is that? Call by one means or another kind of things that look, the old looking for you twice

like a well-run project that we can find the people, the documentation the pump track of the source code in history, because I'm looking impatient the unwrapping. But there is a reasonable Health perspective, licensing, model of this kind of open development environment remains and it's not prescribed, of course you can also do free software in a different environment, just naturally mattress that you have opened us that you have a mailing list that you have contacts. If you have forums, cetera at cetera, especially

when the when the coast gets free trial, Back to the lastic search issue with them. They're changing the licensing model now for commercial reasons, but I mean, folks are in discussion. I know at least the other was catching to put it in the pantry Foundation or cncf other organizations, would emerge say the free lasting free realistic for lasting foundation. And we have to talk to my Foundation that took Libre office or go with the foundation already have

under the stewardship. I think most your body am. So we have this very successful models but of course, that's the way this Obsession about making money was open for us to have something sustainable. But in the case of elastic it's like I think if 400 3:30, Julian app for you and will business. So what was four or five million, you can set up a very nice if I'm going to bed. Goodnight, students case for a, for foundation that continues on the Legacy license. So

upfront is also quite clear how to say, I don't have to do it and being with Watson. It's probably the case that are pets that you can buy by doing a periodic and some of them skills break up because they were publishing Java code for their job, alcoholic Impala. But the Java code was not so good. Before his machine generated from a private language, the combined with the local fix headphones, but if we may be in a position to ensure that the the community copy has a broad yanked out from underneath it,

which is the usual, should we limit the harm and I suspect Voice USB, mr. Number over there to remind us? I'm sorry, I didn't get the question at all the values that is the normal person out on the street. You know, who's not a hacker and so far, we've really failed at that and I think that it's fundamental disturbing that person that the people who serve them have some way of supporting themselves and feeding their families. And making free software. And obviously, we don't want to sing it. Well, here, a little guy, you've to

pay for the software so that I can feed my family. We want to give those folks, freedom. However, when you've got the biggest, most hungry, deepest pocket companies who are making money from free software, I mean, everybody builds their infrastructure on free software. I think there should be a couple goals where they're concerned. First is that they be able to use the software second? Is that compliance be much easier? If you've actually done open source compliance in a company, it is a

nightmare today. And what I would like it to be is that you write a check once a year and you sent it off and that is compliance. And well how do we do that? Well we can tell what software are you using. We can do that. Technically you don't really have to tell us, you can run a program and it will tell us and we can you sing that divvy up that checks that you sent among the developers who software that you're using and do that for very many people know what should we charge? This is all stuff I'm still working on. What I'm thinking is

that, if you collect funds from an end-user, using the software, you should pay 1% of those funds and that 1% goes for all of the software that's under the Post, open license. And the way it works is, if you're an open-source developer and you do a license under this license and there's other software that's only under the Post open license. The license choice is made for Post open for all of that software and the result is that companies have to pay the open-source developer even though the software is still available under an open source license. If they also want to

use the Post open software, And so there's some getting over the hump where this is concerned because obviously you have to have enough software then it becomes desirable for business to buy into this Covenant. Do I have been in that you about that? If you're able to solve the problem or a large chunk of the problem with corporate compliance people? That's real direct benefits. 20 years. We can solve it in this area. Now I build seven and a half dollars per minute working on this for people. So it is expensive

and So another thing that I would do is there are two kinds of what what I say or pernicious uses. And one is where you perform the software and you don't know yet value and the other is digital Rights Management would not be 1%. I would be 10% and once you pay, you can integrate with proprietary software. So the biggest thing that these companies want to do, which is to have their own differentiating value protected they can do. And we need to think about the exchange of value. How do you exchange value in the free software Community? You improve the software.

You were exchanging software for software. There are some people who don't want to exchange software for software. Let's Get Down the chance to exchange money for software. In the Old Testament, more software that we can exchange with the other folks. A really big one which is that we need to be serving people on the street who I got it. Sweet We are merely riding on the back of suffering the world. We haven't really tried as a body of people that said, sorry I

would like before I die to see the free software Community serving the average person, I think that's a reasonable goal for the rest of my life. The other is a bunch of other day that I will refer to sustain the separation of the differentiating. What is the non differentiation in the back room? The service to the plumber. Everything But rather than the peace that the customers can see about the prices. Emergencies are wondering. I wish that we will happen.

Yeah, I know I would I could walk Brewster serving it or I would love to see us do this object that everybody benefits from it. But in time does Burlington in back of my mind, every child was something that I had many, many years ago and the title of that was for. I and so I'm so telling the story of how it was created and how none of us on this panel and I don't think any one of us that is watching list. Knows how to make a pencil. What rules on to make a pencil? The wood,

the back it says, end of February and November, and the ink and whatever they used to go in, to make a pencil. So, likewise the software everything that we depend on. It's built by somebody else, just just how it is. I don't have a means to have some sense of understanding and ability to navigate that space and also to be able to figure out how can I contribute This is the video calling because every time I have all the conversations with people, not necessarily from the IT industry. Are they asked me about software this overcome by this weekend, to fix my computer

to do that. Why is it been so much better if you can replace Jonathan socialization in Thailand having political parties involved in false seems to court controversy. As there is a stigma associated with political parties and hot that the case in other parts of the world. But I get one. Don't hurt. You know, you want to talk about what would happen if Jamie was ringing off the hook in. I ran in last year's Singapore, general election in a different alternative party. And I did help with the current incumbent

re-election, bid car auctions in doing some stuff around the contact tracing app that you have fell on the mobile phone to make sure that that particular thing was open sauce and Isabella behind. It have to be like that isn't any negative in a conversation today. That way and it's not in Singapore. So I think that is supposed to. So I will show you no call for that. Person was asking the question. I think we need to have a conversation because I supposed to be to have a conversation with me.

I give up finally Alaska. Tupac questions to ask a question from our. Do we need both of us as individual employees. Have any power in the equation has what home? Please ask you what happens with work and the question was more to look at what happened during the late modern industrial revolution war. And there was an unprecedented shortage of Labour and that gave rise to the lower unit, was the engine behind a lot of change in human rights in human history. I'd suggest that it's probably too much to ask the programmers, the world, you know,

how to do the same thing again but it's crazy. That sounds No, I'm right with you at like, first of all, I think the moment that we're out right now is unprecedented right? Like I know you know we're talking about how a Bruce's mention quite a lot about how we're not serving regular people or or you know not develop hers and I think this is the first time and certainly in my lifetime that everyone understands what technology was like the importance of technology. This is after all these years

of working in freeing open source software. Those relatives that I see at my family functions are saying you really ought to do something. I thought you were really annoying but it turns out that you made some really good points and I stopped using Whatsapp or I stopped, you know, I'm, I'm good. Just, you know, I'm going off Facebook and, you know, I don't have the right answers right now for you to stay, like your are your Alternatives that are perfect, substitutes that you are not substitutes, but Alternatives that you will Embrace and enjoy and will serve your needs, but we have an

unprecedented. Trinity to create those like a very fact that big blue button right now that we're on is so good. And that I can easily provide alternatives to zoom for every single meeting that I am ever asked to do is a huge child. And so, I think we're at this real inflection point and I think that at the same time, I think developers are realizing that there are consequences to the work they're doing and that they have a responsibility to make sure that the technology they work on is not part of the problem and they're not forwarding the dystopia that, you know, the

past finding ourselves in. And so, I think, you know, I don't think that it's too much to ask for us to start an ethical movement amongst developers. I know that have that traditionally, it's been extremely alienating to say, please make stuff for free time or the principles of Open Source software or whatever it is. However, it is, we want to talk about it, that it's been someone elevating but now, Time because there was a real security argument for it. There is real and it's tied into all these other issues. It's time for us to not be siloed anymore. And it's time for us to

speak up for the ethical nature of our work and the way that's our freedom to send to that suffer Freedom, free open source. Software is not necessarily better safer or more ethical, but it gives us a chance to be better safer and more ethical. And so I don't think it's I think you're absolutely right Rowland. When you tie it to two other labor movement and I think this is our time, and I think we can do it. Cuz you and I. I suspect the right, we have landed right on 5 minutes back,

the West. Huge, thank you all for you. Even before I got around that I hadn't anticipated hadn't thought of that great to help Alice chicken soup. Wait a minute, I've just been told that the MC is Op 2 D and it's all me which creates energy problems which means panel you were excellent. It's a really fun discussion. Can you please? Have the Panthers play today and I just want to express my appreciation to all the time and I want to show out to Ruth and Karen because I

like the time to come here. I know what kind it is only 2 in the morning. Thank you so much and also I'm going to take you about. We have to be then we have the video of Russian. I would say I would send it to your email to self. Thank you very much, station. I think they have many more points to us and we definitely need to continue and get exchange them. I think the important point was that watch company and even redhead and greeting. So let's continue the first impressions in the notes section.

Can I have them back, Jim. I appreciate it.

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