About the talk
This video was recorded at virtual Code BEAM V America conference, which took place on 10-12th March 2021 - https://codesync.global/conferences/code-beam-v-america-2021/
More great virtual tech conferences - https://codesync.global
Hardware as Software
by Pat Hanrahan
Elixir Outlaws will treat us to a podcast.
SPEAKER - Anna Neyzberg
Anna Neyzberg is a San Francisco native who has done a lot of work in the ruby community in SF and currently sits on the board of RailsBridge. She has taken this community organizing experience and last year co-founded ElixirBridge in SF- an organization that offers free weekend long workshops, with the goal of creating an inclusive welcoming space for underrepresented populations in tech to learn elixir. By day she works as a Developer at Carbon Five. When not in front of a keyboard, she is trying to get better at climbing rocks.
SPEAKER - Amos King
Amos is an Agile practitioner who loves writing great code and teaching teams to ship quality instead of choosing between shipping or quality. Agile podcast host who values starting with trust and working into a strong team. Conference speaker, and meet up organizer.
SPEAKER - Chris Keathley
Chris is a software engineer building services and applications for Bleacher Report. Although he started out writing C for embedded systems, these days he spends his time in Elixir, Haskell, Go, and Rust. When not writing code for work, Chris can be found writing code for fun, talking about the joys of functional programming, playing pinball, roasting coffee or building Lego with his kids.
Code BEAM V America
Currently on the lookout for awesome clients with fun technical and people problems. An Agile practitioner who loves writing great code and teaching teams to ship quality instead of choosing between shipping or quality. Agile podcast host who values starting with trust and working into a strong team. Conference speaker, and meet up organizer.View the profile
Although the Concrete industry is in my blood, I never thought it would be a career path I would follow, much less LOVE. I am now a 4th generation Concrete careerist. As a kid, I would go with my Dad to various Ready Mix plants around North Texas and watch him work tirelessly in a very demaning industry. I guess you could say my first job in high school was with Concrete. I mowed the grass for about half a dozen Ready Mix plants in the DFW area. After High School, I attended college at Eastfield Community College, studying Business and Accounting. After Eastfield, I traveled the United States as a Touring Musician for 2 years. Seeing the country this way was a great time in my life and I enjoyed every minute of it. When I left the Music Industry, I got into sales @ Texas Mastercraft, based out of Ft. Worth. I then was appraoched to become part of a Manager Trainee program with Transit Mix Concrete Materials/Trinity Industires. I took the opportunity and ran with it, and I can now say that joining the Concrete Industry was one of the best decisions of my life and I look forward to see what the future holds for the industry, and myself!View the profile
So, I don't know. I kind of want to start out late Raul friend of the show. Roll. Ask a question here. He said, is this the show? And I have several as it's not, we got to wait, wait, wait. Till I stand up and then that'll be the show. This is how we start like every episode. This are talking about. Please late cuz he's making coffee. All right. Does this perfect recording immediately? This is not interesting to anyone. Started. Explain what? I don't know
where you come in, come in recording. I always listen. Whatever is in the show, is in the show and the show is the show. So, whatever goes into the show goes into the show, we don't have to do is just a show. So, yeah, you just record the call, then we're good to go. How's it been going? I'm doing great. I've had the reason I've been in this chair for three days conference has been fantastic. My favorite part always has been the hallway track. And toucan has been a really amazing piece of software for the hallway. Track to be able to bounce around from table to table and see people going
across the room. And every time, Frank I'm with logs and I just start sending them Hearts over and over, no matter where he is really awkward, cuz everybody else except to see the heart split across the screen for me to him for, like, 5 minutes. I need to sit a fireside chat right before this house. Was that actually I couldn't send them hearts in front of everybody. There. I would have. Thought about that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, we had a good time with Frankie Justin, and, and catching up with them. I'm, I'm excited about the day when we can all do
this in person again, but this has been Like the next best thing it really has been too, can I can't say enough about it? Took me a minute to figure out how to talk to people and I noticed that when people are talking it, like vibrates a grey ring around them. When you can tell the people who have never used it before cuz they're off by themselves. In the grey ring is, is going like this over and over and they're all alone. So, you know, they're like how I do anything here, but
you pretty quickly figure, it's toxin some pretty cool people on and meet up with, with some new faces and some old faces cell. You know me. I'll just hang out all day all day if they let me. This is Cherokee. See how you doing. Good. I'm good. Nothing good. It's been funded. I really enjoyed watching the iteration of Congress, talked about this last week and episode, that is going to come out soon. And then I think last time we did one of these pockets is like the
idea of having a conference move, virtually is a really interesting opportunity because you can start to take advantage of such an obviously. Like I love going to conferences. I love seeing people have to hang out with my friends and all that sort of stuff. I love the hallway. I love all of it. It's been fun to see how to take the good parts of that experience, and then adopt them and make them work online and it's been a year decided or whatever, but it's been really good. So I've been just
enjoying seeing the evolution of that start to take place. And I think it's really cool cuz it opens up. It opens up this. Whole thing, where all this, a good stuff starts to happen to a much wider group of people who might not for any number of reasons, be able to take advantage of it. So I really enjoy that and I've been sort of a just enjoying that aspect of it more than even anything else at this point. Yeah, I agree. It's a choice. It's often. Like I feel like at the beginning, it was like, one of the hardest things to
capture right. Is that Holloway tracks for the time. So being able to somehow figure out how to extract that into a digital experience in doing doing the Life podcast. So, this is our 45th Life podcast, something like that. And these are in this environment. And when your like, everybody, who's who's watching here, please like, stay say, stuff in the chat, talk to us. Give us feedback. Because when we're doing shows, normally, the only feedback I get is from like Chris's microphone
and and then we do When we done live shows on stage, it's very different here. We get to be more interactive. We get to see what you're saying. It's you know that like whenever I say something dumb and you Snicker at your neighbor about it, just go ahead and do that and chat now because it's fantastic whenever I get to see everybody interacting and that's not something that we get to do whenever we're doing an in-person conference upon a stage. Even for speakers, you know, we we have who've over here on the left and we have chat and we have Q&A and everything is going
on at once. And there's a lot till I can watch and keep up with, but it is a different experience that I have come to enjoy the first. The first couple of socks that I went to a virtual conference. I was like, I don't know. This is not going to be the same and you're right. It's not the same, but it's still a lot of fun. So, so please purchase. That's what makes this one special. I totally totally does a show. I think that was A lot of time at 7, do either of, you know what your kids have, for breakfast this morning. I know I exactly now cuz this is cuz this is a this is a hard-hitting details
of people come to this to find out avocado toast for my daughter and then oatmeal fruit for the boys super hipster. I left my house. My kids were still in bed when they don't have to get up and go to school there. Like whatever. I'm sleeping teenager. You know, I feel the same way. Yasmin said go ahead. And also if you want to ask questions, we will respond to them. So so go ahead and put on some preemptive Lee foot stuff into there and we'll talk about it in a second and will continue to shuck and Jive for just a moment. I woke up to some come in. Can I show off the books
on type theory on my bookshelf? Know, because I can't out myself as someone who might you type. I have a brand of dynamic pipes piping apologist and I must maintain that brand. That's it's all about refusing to give in. And even when you may, or may not be wrong. Are you have good friends? I hope. Yeah, I hope so. I hope that's that's what people take away from his his that's my brand and the talks any any interesting insights. Any favorite favorite moments Macomber. I already said mine to can and I also, I
took so now I'm going to Carlos I think was doing sketchnotes and uploading them into hoopa, and it was pretty fantastic. And and so I actually did sketchnotes to the inspired the heck out of me and I uploaded on there and it's not near as cool as his. But I'll take a diagram things while Quickly's terrible. I just try to make different fonts everywhere. And I do that afterwards. I draw straight lines and then go back at the end and and fill in and change those straight lines and different things. And if you do lots of fonts, then people don't notice that you can't draw.
I think we have a, we have a question from Daniel. Craig, who asked to be a friend of the show. So so from Daniel, Craig from the show. How can I help people? I love to learn to program to learn programming as a solo activity, but doesn't come naturally to me to think of learning programming as a pair activity and I want to help other people decorate jobs. How about any of that you you have been watching programming a lot over the years? How can I help people? I love by
Cheryl. I want to make sure it's not a lot of my free time trying to help people learn how to make sure I capture that all of the vamp. Thank you. Chris amazing. I think it's Nope. I think somebody like that are just getting into programming. We're kind of in the process of rewriting it. But as far as the question of like, how do you help teach somebody? I think finding one of those crazy ones that are easily accessible. And then I think it's a matter of really just like sitting down and having the patience of walking through the steps with that person and trying to not only help
them understand what's happening, but help them understand what's happening in the context of their own understanding rights. They come they have, you know, certain things might have been learned certain understanding that they have and so not a good combination of learning from first principles and by analogy, we're like something simple and being able to help them also in a relatable way to go through the motions of learning. Man forever, but you're working together
to do some, some simple project. That way that person feels like they've accomplished something and I also get excited about it. As soon as far as the parent house that it's really just a matter of being patient and being willing to explain and find one, doesn't work sitting there and straighten out! I have I have kids that I try to teach the program and I found for me, giving them their own project and then getting out of the way. But being physically in the same room as them while they're doing, it can be really helpful. And then when they do ask questions, I
guess, who was at the Socratic method. I just tried to ask them questions, but they already know the answer to to leave them to it. It's work really well for my kids whenever I'm teaching programming. Not so well whenever I try to teach them math, and I'm like, well, what's 2 + 2? And I like that has nothing to do with it. So you've got to judge each person individually and the situation that you're in but just being present whenever they're struggling can help a lot and I'll be that rubber ducky or whatever. They called it over the years
because it helps you figure out what they don't understand. And I think the another point is like the frustrating thing. I think we can all attest you about learning to program. Especially solo. Is that are those moments and feel like a, you can't understand it or you're incapable of understanding it, or you can't move forward. So, really being present and being able to help somebody work through those moments. I think a lot of people I know for myself while I got all three four, I won't be for a mass amount of people that I actually don't know. So we start over for me also being very
self going to self pie entrance of the programming. So much of programming is holding a weird, mental model in your head like holding arbitrary rules in your head and they really are arbitrary. Right? Like there's very few like overlaps with the rest of the world and no, like there's there's only like loose analogies, you can make it. So you have to be good at just holding on to a weird set of rules and then making intuitions about what those rules imply and
I think mine's my intuition is that those of us who are self-taught one of the things that defines like stovetop programmers is like that comes very that idea of being a little Hulton, arbitrary set of stuff in your head comes right, naturally to you. And if that's the case, I think it is really challenging to figure out how to like explain that to other people. And so I like the idea of having a way to talk about those mental models, but I am like at best an armchair educator which is to say, I have no backing in education at all. And so this is all just
me talking more than it's more than it's like actual well-informed thought. When there's more than one approach, right, but the right people differently. And so I think it's the service. This is a good question here. It is someone if asked by someone on the business side about why use or laying Elixir, what would you say? Oh, I deal with this all the time. This question a lot actually is, it's, it's fascinating. What? I get asked this question in a bunch of different venues from a bunch of people. So I think it's an interesting on a metal level. That this question comes up a lot.
So yeah, I always try to figure out. Why are they asking computers? There's usually a pretty good there. There's something that they're concerned about, and no matter what we say, until we figure out what they're concerned about and truly understand where they're coming from. We're never going to be able to communicate to them. Why use Erlanger Elixir recently. I had a client asking me why, why should we do this in an elixir in Phoenix instead of Ruby and rails? Because they had a lot of rails experience the
background and I started talking about Performance in and not like non-blocking stuff and dealing with background job because that has been really difficult in my experience and rails whenever you start to get bigger and bigger platforms and it wasn't their concern doll. They had been on a project between the rails project and starting this one that was in a language. That wasn't well-known that even when they went to look for people who had skills in it, when they were starting to get desperate. They went on to LinkedIn and searched and not a
single person popped up on LinkedIn. And that is like, nearly Limitless platform. So their concern was actually being able to find developers in. And I start talking about, you could pull people from other languages and train them. We have elixir of everlasting, people that can come in and the quality of the people that I run into and that actually LED them to be really excited about it. The fact that they had in their previous experience, has been a lot of time hiring people who weren't the greatest quality level, in the world end bike, getting ahold of people that came to work on their
teams, that then they had to figure out how to how to let those people go. This is not a nice conversation to have and nobody ever wants to have it. But whenever I talks about the people that I've met in the Elixir community in the airline Community being thinkers and Learners and people who want to push the envelope, then they were happy. Cuz it wasn't about technology or the quality of the technology was about to call you the people. So I went in it wrong to begin with because I had my preconceived, notions of. Why would I choose Alexa, which is a technology reason. But I had to
figure out why they wanted to see why they were concerned about it. Yeah. Alphabetical work. I was doing a Contracting with a company who was like, experiencing the same stuff in it. And I think the question itself is rooted in the, in the, in a sub question, which is that like the company doesn't want to use Elixir. So how do I convince them to do so cuz otherwise like this wouldn't be an issue or earlier or whatever, you know, you're you're being language of choice, and I think that You
have to, yeah, I mean you have to figure out what it is. Like, it's keeping that's like stopping those people from adopting, right? And I don't actually think you can just provide benefits because the benefits is unlike programmers who see the benefit of everything in the trade-off of nothing and will make any decision based on any arbitrary benefits that they say like business people. Do you have like totally different Rubik's for how they like make those decisions? So I think that you have to figure out what it is. It's really like motivating their
decisions and then work to alleviate those pain points. Those are going to be different on a business by business basis. I think there's Barry. Yeah, I mean, it's awesome going to be optimizing for like I want to have a hundred X startup mega growth than hire a thousand people tomorrow and that sort of stuff and it's like I don't know what to do about that situation. So, you know, you have to figure out what it is. It's keeping them from wanting to adopt the language, or the run time or whatever. And then either, yes, we just fears or you
no work within work within the, it was in that Paradigm, right? You understand that context in the way, they're making the decisions and an optimized for that. It's all real hand waving and not useful, a lot of people, but like, I mean, cuz the problem is is that you can say all these things and we are all where all the totally wrong people, to answer this question. We're here sure. You know, where are we already believed in it? And so it's like you can point to a thousand things. So if you know of the run times ability and be like 4 months and
whatever, right? You could, you could name and you can even watch a case studies and show people like, you know, this amount of scale, this mini developer hours, that sort of stuff. And it's And that may not matter to anybody. Do you have to really hit them where it matters for them? If you need to on be empathetic, understand like what's the context of their working in and then and then try to provide something that you supposed to them via? Now, I see that a lot of us
are coming from and what they're looking to do, and what they're looking for, and what perspective, they're coming cuz you know, they make hair. It's business people that I care about different things more. There are pros and cons to every two, every decision. And so, which one what things are they thinking about? Really the secret to getting people to use? Xtool, is asking them a lot of questions, just keep asking questions. And you'll, you'll figure out what they need right to figure out what they need.
And then you can show your answer to make your tool of choice fit into their pigeonhole. Congratulate, everybody. Go start your own company. Now ready. We all think the community needs. Tools, docks, libraries deployment, story language features, disability books blogs. Podcast. I don't feel qualified to answer this question either. I appreciate the people feel like they should ask us but I think from my perspective we have there's a, we have a lot of books. We have a lot of blogs and in their good
but many of the things that I see out there are written for beginner. Early intermediate. I would even say like Advanced intermediate people. And I'm going to look, I'm going to read that. Just second Robert, and the read it too small on my screen. I feel like we need some things that that get more in-depth and get more to the point to, to get to push us past the intermediate level and into the advanced level and get us thinking about different things. I do, think, I don't walk away
from the beginner level stuff in the early intermediate-level stuff, but I think as us as a community to, to continue to grow and continue to push, if that's, if that is our goal. I mean, not all of us want to do that. Some of us love a small tight-knit community and we don't want to get too big, right? But if that is our goal as a community is to grow then I think we need to grow up and out. And right now I feel like there's a lot of emphasis on out and let's also grow up. Yeah, I thought that was going. I was going to say, is like, I think something between like,
medium and advanced level information. I don't know how you want to put these scales on their right? Like everybody's going to have a different viewpoint on that, unlike what you call those skills. But like, we, I think we need some. Yeah, I think there's kind of a gap Gap there, when it comes to, how to put the stuff in production, like deal with it. And I might more advanced information. I was just trying to think, I can't think of a single Elixir book that talks about Unlike s has the most important
thing that I use on like a daily basis or like one of them is like, like it's such a crucial part of Building Systems with this stuff and it's and like I can't think of a single book that touches on it. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I know sauces book does but it I mean, like, gets deeper into the like, here's how to use this for a bunch of different use cases, in that sort of stuff. I mean, obviously like Fred's book gets into some of that stuff, but you have to help me take my meeting cuz I don't
know that there's like, Like a like a end-to-end sort of like building an application. In, here's how you use. All this sorted, quote on, quote advanced stuff. I don't, I don't know that I consider us to be Advanced, but you understand. How are you, Hannah? I think I agree with that, but I agree that extending out for spending more time. I think I'll just say do you like the thing that I hope want to see personally is not of specific thing. It's pretty nebulous, but I think
I just want to see people build more cool stuff and talk about it. Like, I know that that's not useful. But you know, I think that if people want this ecosystems to succeed, we have to all sort of keep championing it and saying like no, like here's the success of it. And here is like, why this is working for us and here is all the cool crap that you can just do like, isn't this awesome. I think the more we all go out and talk about that kind of stuff and support each other. In all of our weird ideas. The better off. We're going to have said this before,
you know, it's like I don't think we win quote on quote. Like I don't think we ever, you know, I don't think we're going to see a huge amount of adoption trying to play the lake Mass adoption game. In a sense it like, If you can't you can't out, you know rails rails rails exist, like they already did it. So like what are you going to do? That's different. That is revolutionary in its own way. And so that's that's the thing. I'm interested in, right? I just want to, I'll just say I just want to encourage people to like go out and do that kind of
stuff. I think that's really important. Go out and build something. You know, that people tell you was a bad idea. It's like, you know, I don't know, lots of people. I think that teaches people to think to like when you're when you really do outside you, I saw somebody Justin I think was talking about universities and their teaching and what they're teaching really like The Tool Guy. I choose ehrling. I choose Elixir because it's a tool that makes the problems that I enjoy. Solving
a little simpler to solve. Then if I try to write it and see your job either or anyting else and the beam is really what? What gets us there. Right? Or all the work that Robert and Mike and Joe yarn. Thank you. All of you. I see Robert out there in the corner. So thank you Robert for for all the work that you you brought forward because those are the problems that I want to stop. So if you find that weird problem that you want to solve and you get excited about it, other people will get excited about learning to and
learning about this language in this ecosystem and how it can solve the problem. They want to self and if it does, that's okay. So I want universities to teach people how to think and question what they're doing more than I want them to teacher specific language. And I think that will get us to a better Point as as a wider Community, even outside of being but as a software Community as as human beings will be in a better place. If we get people to think and question what they're doing, why they're doing it and how they're going to do it in the
future. I didn't mean, I feel like I got deep there. I didn't mean to. No, but I think it's an important question. Sorry. I was trying to catch up. I'm trying to catch up. I feel like a twitch streamer. Should I sub? Your natural both, both of those. Where's it going from here? We're trying to rewrite the cricket on the bring it up to date as he basically passed for the pandemic. It's me, and we're really busy and like like a pain in the ass or trying to get
it back up and running has been either. Be there if you go to the, ER, or the website. This is the thing about the live shows that you get Oliver awkward pauses over the next two years. I think, I think that goes back to that. Gross thing. How how? There's so many of us in this community that are in that intermediate field. We we don't have five years experience of this week. There's a lot of incoming people. So how do we get that grows from intermediate to Advanced users? And even in erlang, like there's I feel like there's a new influx of people coming in
Irvine, to some of them through Elixir, but they are there in that same place. We need to give them tools and resources to grow from that intermediate to Advanced and that is what will sustain us and keep us around for a long time for the future. If they like your response to, somebody asking how I can get elixir deployed to production. Nope. Sorry, there's a running joke amongst my monks, but I like friend group of people. It's one of things that people talk about a lot. It's like the
playing Alexa is really hard and then you like ask them what they're trying to do. And it's like, well, I'm trying to provision Amnesia in clusters, set up across three different discs on Heroku. That's like, oh, okay. Well, I understand the problem that you're having now, you know, it's like I wanted to play a super stateful application with zero down time to play mint, on kubernetes with doctor with, you know, like across multiple Cloud providers or something. And it's like, yeah, that's like just hard. Like I don't like nutmeg literally, any run time, that's like, literally just
heart. And so I think the the, the notion that Alexa is really hard to deploy or something like that. These days, right? Like, I'm going to be an apologist for anything, but I think these days is, like, that's way over overblown, if you want to use for leases and all that for a 7 doctor and other things if you want to, like do complicated stuff. Then yes, I see your deployment story necessarily. It's harder and there is no there is no like anything. That's going to save you from that. Like it would be hard in
literally any run time and I don't know. I just find it to be very funny. So it's become a meme within like my social Elixir circle of people saying, like elixirs, literally, unemployable, and stuff like that. It's just not accurate. I've deployed it. And therefore it exists. Did you look like you were thinking about the challenges facing the community? And you were going to say something,, you're out on the joke around, so I don't know. That's a really, really good question. And I understand King about what,
the, what that looks like, what the challenges are now, and where we go from here. I don't know. That's a really tough one. Do y'all feel like you see in the community around for a while? You'll feel like you've seen kind of good habits and patterns, develop as far as we build systems in the community, or do you feel like there are purchased that you yourself personally taken that you think work? Well, but the time has really been adopted at the you'd like to see more of like What's the thing that I'm the thing is bouncing around in my head is
like the major thing that I am concerned about. I think we're at we're very, how do I talk about this? I think we are. Very close to a Tipping Point. Where are early adopters, who have a lot of knowledge of this stuff are going to leave. Early adopters always leave like people who adopt early people who early adopt stuff 10 too early enough stuff over and over again, right? Like that's in aggregate right? Not individually, right but like in aggregate
turns out people who are way less risk-averse. For adopting a thing will continue to adopt new things. They find the new thing that works for them if they try a bunch of stuff, right? I think we're Reaching a point where? You know, those people are going to start to leave and if that happens without sort of filling the gaps of knowledge there then then and then. That's kind of what I was getting back to you with the thing about, you know, I think one of them's we would kind of maybe need a
little bit more of is like kind of intermediate level it let intermediate to advanced level documentation looks like and that sort of knowledge stuff. That's kind of weird. Drive me to think that is cuz if that if all the sudden, like all those people stop talking and they move on, then you're left with a real large gap and it's really hard to begin to bridge that Gap. Both from a just like from a personal standpoint. But I think also from a marketing standpoint like this, this matters when it comes to like marketing, the language and the run
time and all this other stuff. And so I think that that's that's the thing that's been on my mind for a while now. And I'm slightly concerned about it. I don't know that. I know how to do anything about that, but it was definitely a thing that I've been thinking about a lot and talk and trying to talk to people about a lot. Yeah, that's what I actually hadn't considered that aspect of things but given the state of the community. That's totally a real, a real thing. No dancers. Yeah, I don't either so, you know, that's what I mean.
There's not like anything, any one person. That's why I continue to Champion idea would like, go out there and pluck, show people the cool stuff that you've built. If I think getting people talking about it and driving excitement and getting people, you know, interested in that sort of stuff in building that height, like it's kind of dumb as that sounds like is important, like really exciting. And I think that, that, that can have a large impact on how people do the community and that sort of stuff, you know, I don't forget to like as much as I value this, as a
as somebody who uses Library, I don't know that it's like, people make weird judgement calls on stuff right, like why they can close your community. Occasionally, goes into the read me, sand does like proof of life, like, cop commits to their read me, where the like this Library, still works, two years. After I wrote, it hasn't changed as a broken. So you do you still good to use? But I just wanted to commit it. So you would know that I Still alive. Yeah, that sort of stuff. That's like that's, you know, that's a way to to tackle that but
No driving. Interesting discussions about that stuff is useful. I think we're getting close to, let me correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm going to show us the timer over time. And you have to deal for two. Can everybody come to toucan? And I was told yesterday that I'm really good at ice breakers. And so I'm going to call you out. Mackenzie Morgan hopped in to talk to me. So everybody could talk to Mackenzie Morgan because she's really cool. And how's that for an icebreaker? McKenzie? Welcome. What can impose a real quick
or both of you think you're excited about coming here? That's supposed to be a real quick answer. I'm really excited to maybe attend a conference at the end of the year. Barring any obvious problems. Wherever Kuechly is on. I like big fan of remote work and everything and Andrew, Just getting to see people that I don't normally get to see, but for me personally, the energy to make new things and and to do those funny things that we talked about all of us needing to do, I get energized by other people and talk to them in their
ideas and in person. So it's just me, but yeah, super excited to maybe see y'all person maybe in November. I shall thank you for listening to us talk and asking questions excetera. Super fun. Thank you. See you all in a toucan.
Buy this talk
Buy this video
Our other topics
With ConferenceCast.tv, you get access to our library of the world's best conference talks.