CreaTech: From here to the Metaverse

Welcome back to the create exchange at Target. Hybrid Festival, 2021, Global Leadership Summit, and Festival of artificial intelligence and Trust transformational technology address in the big question. How do we get the next 10 years, right? I am your MC this afternoon and create Tech has had a stellar line-up of cutting-edge contents from gaming, live performance advertising music fashion Visual Arts and so much more. It is worth reinstating that creates that is unique in

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of capital investment. Start up coming session is Toys R Us from here to the metaverse. Our speakers will explore what a virtual world for the vast opportunities. They open up to society, to work on the Arts and how close we are to the Tipping Point been Vickers. CTO at Serpentine galleries, will be moderate in discussion. Ben is a curator writer. I'll be sure and technologists, he is senior strategist at large with the serpentine in London and co-director of

ignorant. Been a big welcome and over to thank you so much for having me Layla. I'm to the Coke xtm. And if your buddy for joining us today with global gaming, population of / 2.7 billion, I need experience that we're still continuing of a fully digitized. Well, since the onset of the pandemic, the mess of us has rapidly come to the full gram of everyday conversation. So I'm Super excited to have this conversation with come in today, to continue to discuss the mess of us with him. And what improbables doing in that space throughout the

session. If you want to share questions, please put the kick things off Herman. I'm sure that this many people in the audience here are well familiar with improbable but not, could you tell us a little bit about what improbable does a? Why it's so important to this? Critical development is a massive us. Thanks for having us. So improbable is the Wilds company, we build the infrastructure and technology that enables complex touch with loves to be easily built run and operate it. And we break many of the limitations that have previously

existed. So we can allow for massive dance, Virtual Worlds, with thousands of people in them to interact together and we also make it much easier, just to run and build a multiplayer games of all times. We also by the technology to modeling, real-world problems, and so where, Can you stay inside the UK Defence operators and other areas that are using virtual walls for practical real-world problem-solving swap? Thanks Herman. So I got things started. It's, it's funny cuz we're actually had a conversation. I think maybe seven or eight months ago now and then we were talking

in the frame is such a well, but it's amazing. What's happened this year in terms of a mess of us, like appearing in a listening of newspaper articles. I want to know what you think it is. This kind of capturing people's attention. I was seeing this repeated engagement with the CID are at the mess of us. So I think it's a little bit like the very beginning of the.com, boom. On at the earliest, time of the internet. I think a lot of people recognize that people are going to spend a lot more time online, but that was value in those experiences. And there was some sort of

opportunity that I think in the same way, people are saying well people are spending time online zoom in video games in meetings. Maybe that's some amazing. God would bring it all together, but I don't think it's a very articulate. And yet I think it's very much a sense of that being something that Perhaps, you know today cryptocurrency side discussion at, you know, where there's smoke. There is some fire, but usually not where everyone thinks. Anna and I wondered in terms of the mess of us know. It's a term was coined in 1993 by Neal Stephenson. So in

some ways we've already had mess of us since we had second life. We had like a first run at this kind of similar to what you think is really different. This time the business model problem for a lot of companies and was it just one that many people online internet connections, one that Faust most of the applications with now engaging it on the internet comes into its own, just one possible without solving a lot of times. I mean, I remember a time just barely we're building running an operating, a website was an incredibly expensive proposition.

You need an engineer's and money. You have to run in scales that has. And we not take the brunt of the wild, where all about it. Very convenient. Steam, Jenny of infrastructure, technology applications problems and uses. That's what we're going through when it comes to about your welds in the neck. I think it's going to be as big as important development. Has the Improvement was always at you know, what the inside becoming Brandon strength. So what's different? This time is the technology exists to actually do these things. Uses, billions of them. Now playing games and fun games about to

experience has and I think there's a genuine need for a lot of problems. That can only be solved through more complex actual environment to Metro. Yeah, I think that it's really obvious that the technology is here, and it's working because I just thinking about the time virtual Production Studio, looking at the way that a lot of films and now being produced, and I'm kind of seeing video games engines into into all these different Industries. I'm actually proving that it was efficient seeds from from the get-go. I kind of feel like, what we're seeing, is that the video games engine.

So it represents this new interface technology, the blockchain. What are these things that people choice about having a grounding Innovation and cut a characterizing, various hype waves. And so I really see this is being kind of. Next internet weather is with a all layers in the future. Excetra is. How did how you see this unfolding? And is it as big as the next internet or anything different about? I think we have to generalize a little bit and ask what's the utilities. What's the problem? People having salt? So video games about entertainment and to an

extent? They're about structuring a good time. I think as they become Virtual Worlds, what psychology shows us is that people aren't sitting in the game solely for entertainment, that trying to fulfill really fundamental and important human needs. That we normally get from Harvey's jobs, excetra bonhomie competence relatedness, the desire to learn how to become better at something. If it still means you get from solving problems and the need, we have to express ourselves to explore new realities and ideas. We do this all the time. We've done this all the time with media theater, novels

creativity in different phone, but games really give people a sense of agency in ownership over. The walls are create an ability to really expand themselves, which we know correlates with really positive outcomes. And I think if we think about what, you know what people really are doing, you know, I'll bring the designed to engage with a very complex. Well, it's only natural that as we seek deeper and deeper engagement too much, will Ball State. Become more and more sophisticated of the time. So once we established,

how big do not go, how big an industry can that be on the global gaming industry? Today is already almost two hundred billion dollars. I'm at the hundred billion more than when we started in Provo. So the rate of growth and the opportunity is really cuz I just, I think everything from music concerts New mediums of Engagement about comes to people, being able to kind of our own and run space is all of those things are much more possible to have it before. I know you mentioned the Megabus on the ideas from the 90s in the 80s, I think. They're a bit

like the ideas about space travel. We had in like the twenties and thirties, you know, he's like really quaint ideas of people landing and having picnics on the moon. They were based on what we knew then about technology in about ideas. What we know now shows off that features a lot richer a lot different from Straight and I think it's important to cut a drawers back to the beginning in terms of what you say of what I'm probably is doing, right? Because you identify some specific things that are required in order to give rise to complexity and virtual of

things quotes it. Like about the Travis Scott concert in fortnite that do a million. The people viewing that seems most people know where is the actually it was under 50 people at time experiencing. So one of the things they've improved was focused on this scale assistant, I'm going to watch a video of a recent breakthrough on that. Can you tell us a little bit about why scale is important, but I would use density, not scale, but I like where you're going with us. So things like the Travis Scott concert, which was all that

was. An example of millions of people engaging with a free recording of an object has no direct contact with the office for the Boarding in groups of a hundred. But if you think about when you fell in love with the Fast Life concert you ever want to do, you know, thousands of people all around, you can make without trying Miami. You do a real sense of presents a powerful social muscle Express agency, you're part of a wave of an interaction with people that really requires an order of magnitude more computational power. So, something like, a game of fortnite might might use what, what I would

call and operations, the 2nd. So, the, in communication being exchanged, it might be at the number of the few thousand seconds. Quite a lot of the entirety of WhatsApp globally through all the messages pinging in all the phones that everyone currently watching this. That's several million messages, a second, meaningful, communication. That's what do actually do, what we've accomplished and what you need to accomplish two things. The number to get someone to show the video. I'll give a sense of what the numbers are. The computational power in the, the the challenge required to

enable like thousands of people in the same place. It's just a hole. And the utility people as much, right? As you know, you wouldn't enjoy it. If it was just I think with that we could watch the video to give the audience a real sense of Coordination, I want everyone to jump. And we texted scales. Oh, my Lord. People. So much traffic. Party time on the platform. Hold the Line. This has been amazing. It's been amazing to be in here with all of you. Love me.

I was great. Thank you. Thank you for shutting. So what was it? Like, I'm glad we you I was one of the giant David. So we should give it a contact here. So this was an event we held as a surprise inside. I want to buy Life GameStop inches which would buy that. They've been working on this event for a while and wanted to just show people rather than tell people about it and we were surprised at the number below to show doubt that we had at one point 4200 single environment in this game and unlike anything we've ever experienced before everyone could Rush the same spot everyone to see

everyone. Everyone can interact waved flags and Banners on We Are The Boys solution so that the giant avatars that we were to talk directly to everyone with no latency is he would get normally on a small amount of the same. As in college, even know, something like, hybrid Mastiff, live interactive events. Last social experiment with physics and come back and all of these things. I do honestly, Like giving a theater production, it was really strange. The bad performance anxiety. We all day and we came on and it was really wild. We lost five thousand strangers to behave themselves on

the internet and they did, they did our instructions. They went too long and they, you know, I think the overwhelming that's not the reaction videos on YouTube excetra, but it was just a different level of of fun in back of the numbers. We talked about that actually process is 250 million operations a second and it uses a very say I techniques to compress the bandwidth and do other things. We even have to invent new rendering techniques so that everybody could see everybody. I mean if that's the sort of level of challenge that required to enable these deeply from experience. The game

but you can Envision it being well either giving a speech to thousands of catalysts and interacting with them in the mall more fun. Go away. Kind of listened to this with next question. It's like having it away at start. Maybe we can come back to talk a bit more about the experience but Like, when you were experiencing that and you were seeing, you know, the technology works, we can bring this level of people together. We'll see what's next. What, what is the context that you think that this could be most applicable to office a video games, Wells, having large battles, but obviously it's

potential opportunity. Since we were the oldest, it's nothing very public and everything from music to things. We never even thought of, and I think what we're going to have to do is figure out what is the right environment to create the right, social the fact. But what are the right? Industries that are ready for that type of shift, in France formation? Because one of one of my colleagues said it, really well. As we practiced, this a few times, which is this skill required to manage proud engage with them in a live setting when they're

all so controlling an avatar when they're also. Like, sometimes they're behaving, it is almost a bit, like, going from like, black and white to color TV or into the kind of takis when you need a new skill. Hey, buddy, if you take a different generation of performance and entertainers and host and, you know, game creators that can kind of understand how to do this. But I imagine music will be one of the first place feels like, there's also an application in the game World of washing experience is right, because this

was growing up playing video games, the idea of sitting and watching other people, play video games, kind of thing. I think that's the point of which I realized. I was old and relations video game. So I can also Imagine, you know, Esports being like a very quick application today, the actual event got very lucky. So we had a twitch streamer in the event. Streaming the event as a person. One of my colleagues who was first to join, Nautica. She noticed on a side monitor that was happening and he called out. Put stream

up to, then react, shocked on his suit stream, brought him to the front, to respond to him, to fight individually to the amusement of the other few thousand people. So like, it's supposed to get really interesting method strange and wonderful, when you begin to connect these things together and I think it adds to the complexity and value that I think I can imagine people while also being kind of almost dungeon monsters inside a game like that's in controlling it to the house. Yeah, cuz what, I remember, I remember when Snapchat, first came out, and you have

disciples are experienced at the kind, you'd use wake up in the morning and I have been had happened and you have it from like 10 to 4 people's perspective, a different moments in time. And it feels like something, something similar to that could emerge from these two events that happen. If it's not ice tray on the screen, a questions coming from the audience. It feels rather than to bring it at this point is why is it taking so long for developers to make these types of massive multiplayer experiences? That's exactly why we exist. It's really, really hard. Really hard is taking us

several years that he had you known. Some of this has been built alongside applications at lockhill training, all kinds of things. The underlying technology is like stopping again, with building a big complex website, you know, you need all of the pieces. How do you distribute the? What how do you handle the communications and bond with? How do you support development environment? Just one small example. We have to create a system that actually created thousands of machines in the cloud simulate. The load of those flags login and then recreate the behavior. They are. So just testing

this environment ends up becoming a major project that requires a lot of additional luck. So we're really hoping we and other companies can kind of come together and make this problem a lot easier if I love you. Is probably something to eat cod necessarily say, but can you give some indication to the magnitude of pasta, that it takes to go from 5000 to say, a hundred thousand to a million. Is that something that we going to see in the next ten or twenty years or so, you know, that this architecture that we've shown is not at all running at its limit. You know, we've actually, we've tested

that do more than I think. This is nothing more than 10,000 people simultaneously in the same spot. And I would reckon that, as more for it to go and probably between 10 and 100000 shouldn't require major changes in approaches, but we don't know, I don't see. Anything insurmountable in, getting to those types of numbers and bear in mind that, you know, those types of numbers, reflect. The total number of people currently playing most of the top games on Steam, you know, they're in the hundreds of thousands to see if you had any moment in time. So she can hit that. You can basically grab the

majority of the live audience in the single game. You know, all in one place at one time, a million different. All right, I got to get that is very achievable with the technology exists today without having to invent something. You would love to go in that direction. And in this book, she's making this very interesting argument about the amount of effort that goes into the first space race. And this idea that we need to have these kind of bigger because what happens, as a result of the speaker. Goes, if you get one of these type of external unexpected innovations, that

then feed back into society now, it feels to me, you know, a lot of people be like, well, we go to Second Space Race going on right now, but it seems to me that planet. Rescale simulation is cutting up with this kind of purpose of mission, and I wonder You know, what it? What do you expect? The kind of feeding back into society? What are the long-term impacts of the be on the game contacts. The most efficient within the other is, how do you create artificial models of real? Well systems,

how can you be confident in that correctness? How can you analyze an integrated models together? And then also, what is questions about the real world? So, the biggest problem, I think we face as companies and groups today on his government, is the world changes so quickly, but constantly put into situations. We've never encountered before. I need to speculate on what might happen if we would want to make a change. So building major simulations about city is our economy. Our power grid cyber Netflix, all things that we've we've played with and on into in different contexts, become

very powerful tools for making decisions for people with how things were, you know, it's it's Almost like we need to be in a in a in a mindset of Perpetual rehearsal. And I think the biggest change will experience in society as governments and companies will just feel more competent. When encountering these situations, we're going to become much more doctible. As a society. We going to become much more long-term thinking. We're going to be able to democratize ownership of a complicated ideas that we can give the general public, for example, of disease-modifying, covid and allow them

to play with it and then come to the round here. Can I get a sense of why things have been suggested the way that they are visually clearly, you know more about some more fulfilled. We know that the psychological benefits of greatest element from activities that really text you in scratch, you know, but some games about your love, those can really do very powerful outcomes for people, you know, it can lead to better mental, health outcomes. You can leave. Do, you know, people being more tolerant towards one another?

And until you see the application of of, I mean, obviously the brain is like, a complex thing to simulate and we're seeing a lot of breakthroughs of measurement in the area. It is something that you were supposed to see the application in Provence Technologies. I think large-scale simulation could become a very powerful general-purpose code for a lot of things. At the moment. We really focus on physical systems on physical systems with Wii model. People in large groups, how they operate, how they interact with one another, but I can ask him if he's the applications in other areas to

sell, simulation modeling biology. These are all model topics that in the future could become relevant today is what we want to do. Is so practical problems. Yep. It'll be cool. You know that but what will you do for me? Why why do I want this? You know why? It is good for this Friday. I think those are the questions. We have to answer before embarking on these things. Infancy very much a very Tech orientated. For people that may be a listening to this talk today in countering,

the kind of concept of virtuals. But well, it's obvious, he made up of lots of different types of people skills. Excetra. What would you say to, you know, what do these Wells needs. Do you know, did they need to cut a mess? What do you feel like is missing? Most of the development of this field. I think really flattered of different skills, required. I think, games, and games developer to become very insular and a major opportunity exists. People who are outside of those pills and then you mentioned Economist. Absolutely. I'm social scientist psychologist, you know, people

mathematicians frankly, even in modeling these systems, like we're struggling to even figure out. How are an improvement or change, go light your world as we can. In fact, the world over many generations gone. Exactly. Do you know efficiently would love some people all the time. So there's a lot of speculation has been created as well, you know. Is Inez, think is like if you are stage at or set create there in music. What do you do with this stage? What you do with this that how will you make that interact? If you know the problem with being an enabling companies? Where the people how many

people to an able to ride? So I could do anything in the store could be to inspire, more people to look at the space, which I think will also be a colossal Market opportunity that she scratched Maya. Blockchain question for my list. Since it's coming from the audience. I will ask you, are they phrased it this way? What can blockchain enable Messi vs. The centralized Technologies,, but I think it would be useful to maybe also in our office here in this, like a nasty got a pink Highway excetera and a lot of the applications. Those

Technologies was the turn up in my world actually a much more geared towards got a video game contacts. What are your thoughts on that? I think that we got to be very very careful in this case. Nothing we do here in both the dogs. Blockchains are about distributed trust their about creating opportunities with the reason to need two central control or authority. But if you're stimulating all of reality for hypothetical economy are already being trusted tomorrow, the whole world. So having a database that sells how much money people house is

not a much greater level of frog. And doc said, though. I think I was about your ability to trade items between them very important, but I think people should be wary of garbage in garbage out, you know, if if something wasn't valuable to begin with. Only making it exclusive a notable about your world. I love you, but I'm making a quick Buck on it, which you don't like the.com. Boom, right? There's a lot of ideas that feel very exciting in the beginning,

but he won't be stopping off at Boston Market opportunity, how it look like out of the time. Cuz where is an area where 100%, I can see what I see in the area. It didn't, the people coming. So I didn't quite think it was possible in the contacts, but it clearly shown to be an it clear that this is an entirely like new casaplex, it except for the kind of entering the space, but just maybe just to stay on the, the economics for moment this cuz it's another question that came on,

but would love to hear your view on how the mess of us. Can drive people to spend more in the bush wealth and I guess that's a funny question some ways because I wonder if the person to ask that question is we're just how much people do spend in virtuals and how big is our economy in a totally agree with you? Herman like you have to make Rich incredible welds and then people produce certain things. But what are your thoughts in terms of how that hybridisation of the economy on folks? Virtual walls, don't monetize. Attention in the same way. Other types of

online service and activity to weld monetize. The play value, created through engagement and fulfillment, the psychological made. So I'll give you an example. If you build a well that has an amazing world cup inside it so I can eat for dinner because that's part of why we played because that game is considered fair and skillful and people aspire to be good at it. Suddenly owning memorabilia from the World Cup 95 or 2000 valuable and become straight up and become. Something of

note. This is really about human beings infusing, things of value and meaning in complicated structure and so much wealth as they get more complex. They create more opportunities for people to invest to have value to have moments that matter. There's only so much you can monetize tic-tac-toe right back as well. Go across no matter. How about you? And so I think as games become more complex with technology like this. They will be more advisable, a Methodist or what connection of different. The love. I can imagine how a wholly different levels of possible spending and a

better look at in terms of finding a look at it in terms of play value. Know, how can you think it'll be easy? Yeah, I mean, just to add something there in terms of personal experience in such a world. I mean, as a number, if I should welds that existed in the past and it was looking at because they have to be put in a strange examples like a grandma grassmarket. We had an object. So maybe glitches in the game. Exceptional. I noticed that it was those objects that were not designed by the world or anybody in 10 minutes to the usable in the world that took on the most value. So that

there are very kind of all the colonies to imagine this face. And I think what the mess of us really presence, is the need to consider when designing his subjects in these Wilds that they might have a life in other worlds in the future. People build out these kind of sentimental relationship with those objects. So I totally agree. I think that's a good example. I do believe we should throw caution though because The history of technology is littered with mistakes that were made by a flying bat analogies to new things, you know, so if we just think of three right now, you know Bitcoin is

like gold not sure about that space travel is like railroads not sure about that, you know, if it's very easy to talk, boo movie like real estate will know, people just change the names in the things that they could find Dominion for rather than the other way around, right? I think that's a really powerful powerful cognitive technology. We can all Embrace, which is to go. How far is my analogy? Take me to Willoughby rare items if you don't want to trade. Absolutely, but where will I be created? Where does gravity come from in a world? Where things can be created in Stickney? Does it come from

artificial scarcity? Does it come from Blair investment and ownership? Does it come from your memories? You know, how will World operates? Some really good questions. You're throwing up here and I think they will take, it'll take time for those to get locked out. Yeah, and I'm not question. The message was maybe to take us because I think that you know, a lot of the discussion right now around the messes us is Being Framed in economic terms. And I think you already seeing how to pull results in the car blockchain contacts because you just end up with her a while to speculative assets which

isn't really very fun to play with the name, any particular walls, but if you spend time and you'll know this but maybe take a stuck in a different direction. Reese's before they spread of ideas for third place. And this is in reference to the coffee shops. And the role that they played in industrialization that you had this kind of other places in society where ideas and Concepts and people met each other. And the coffee shop is within its historical trajectory, a more interesting method for what is a kind of massive force in Utah. In thinking about how

people coming together in these spaces. Where are we? Pack of wolves with extra. Are there specific ones that you think are Irrelevant this morning? I think it stopped a challenging question for a lot of reasons because it's one thing to speculate on technology but would now speculating on culture and it's really hard to imagine the way things might be because already speculating on your road and change your own psychology. But what I would say is if you could take something like the Roman Colosseum, you know, or Martin or mutton stadium and make it much more, participatory much

more part of people's lives. So let's just imagine an example that, I think I sometimes imagine if it was a sporting event every year that everyone, but it's the only happened once but literally hundreds of millions of people that say will pop in it and people talked about it to the entire year when they want part of it, you know, like almost like a benign version of going to war with something that everybody was booked on how my sandwich of ideas, but I'm like that affects Society. What might that be like, you know, it wouldn't quite be like for this today. Yes, we all watch the World Cup

before in the football bet. You know, it would almost to come a weird button, social like a filter and I'm almost at a source of social pride in its own self and probably a pretty large economy. That's the kind of thing as possible. You know, like what happened reality TV, Mass participation. That's probably good example, you're the one coffee shops. Is it something about mixing people together? I, I look at, you know, the movie Casablanca and this idea people with very opposing ideas who happened to find themselves communicating interacting in the same space. We thought

social media would be that but it isn't because of the echo chamber problem. Virtual worlds are much more likely to be that because I shattered reality in which, you know, you thought of me to make the decisions together and figure things out together, you know, that's that's that's something very powerful about the entity. They can. Of course, I have to be designed. Well, you know, I could see this. I could see the stop bringing neighborhoods in town and country is together in a really unusual way and it might even create the opportunity for a lot more of a distributed having

a bunch will send that in a place and we started using to stop at town hall for a couple. I wish we can get pretty amazing field. I just think more people should be in it. You know, it's it's it's really happening at the moment. Yeah, that's an incredible Point actually because I had a question. I didn't ask earlier intensive, you know, if you're building a world. If you're building these, these kind of new social spaces. How'd you avoid the problems? We have Arisen, as a result of social media oversee, one anticipated, because nobody can simulate that level of complexity ahead of

everybody being in a, in a sense. But I did Virtual Worlds lead to rather than cut a critical Coventry that leads a critical construction because they was working together. I think it's extremely powerful in my feels feels right to me. And so I'm sick of where this kind of goes. I think I even raise an interesting point. I would only make one contradiction, which is I think it was more fussy about. Then we realize, you know, they were voices at the early days sang. This wasn't a good idea. The historian Niall Ferguson talks about how printing process, you know, when

the printing press was created. We thought it would create. What was it? Those of you that it would create a society of priests because everybody can read the Bible and one of the books to stop being spread. It was a crazy text about which funny. And so is talking to me to learn that something like actually happened after the availability of more information in the form of the printing, press, you know, so your innocence what we did it happen to every time we create a new type of communication outrage was always baked into the business model. I think you're right. I think constructive

creation, that if Minecraft is what about symbol for. But what about of us might be some very powerful environment where every action creates some extent. Okay, I think we're pretty much a time. So just like one last question. It's like, what do you where do you think the Tipping Point is for, for this kind of transition where I know exists for many people. We know the gaming, the global gaming populations huge wedgies and not Tipping Point is for it. Sort of really being fully register that we have cut a

transition that we no longer necessary making these divisions between digital and physical stats. Last time. I was here. I told you the technical problems part of why we did that demonstration is today, but there's also somebody else those disposable problems now, so I think it boils down as a whole big cultural transition to do a single application, you know, if I knew what it was idle it right now, but you know, there's there's probably one or another application one or another for one of the better phrase, killer app that really opens people out to this type of thing. Your cultural

change. Like the tripod at out of those out, those. Those are those up and they're all just happens. And now with the, how can I could? We are can happen very quickly, you know, if you think of how quickly fortnite became a big thing, remind me to differences in feet, so it may already be happening right now, and maybe and develop and maybe it will be released in the next couple of months. Can I see people, we have enough game, has, we have enough opportunities to monetize and create value for people in my contacts. So, you know, any minute, that's what I would say. Keep an eye on

everybody that attended and for the great questions, I'll head back to Layla. Now, everybody. Have a great day. Thank you so much, been in Herman for joining us today and taking us into a completely different worlds and your lies game scavengers event. Sounds like one of the coolest hybrid social experiments ever. Lots of food for thought is your sector ready to manage an experiment of that nature. Tell us your thoughts and feedback using hashtag called X

2021 on hashtag created for our lost tree succession of the day. It's going to be one of the best so don't go anywhere. See you shortly.