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Economy: Using the power of Anthro-Vision to understand human behaviour and drive change
Anthropology, the scientific study of human behavioural patterns and underlying meaning, has found new domains of research in business and economy. Bestselling author and Anthropology PhD Gillian Tett shares how Anthro-Vision reveals new and intriguing insights in the ‘webs of meaning’ that underpin our choices, and explains how it can drive change towards a more sustainable economy.
Gillian Tett - Editor at large, Financial Times
Stephanie Hare - Independent Researcher & Broadcaster
Welcome back to the economy, staged here at the coke X hybrid Festival, 2021 and Innovation and digital. And I meant seeing this stage today while we were exploring the concept of the pandemic question Street discussion of Fatima die at the end by Exxon School Festival. Is the hashtag codex 2021 and submit questions in this session using the power of ants revisions understand, human behavior and drive, change Gillian, tett Anthropologist and editor-at-large at the FBI will be
the scientific study of human behavior costumes and underlying meaning in business. So without further Ado, I'll have David Duchovny and Gillian. Hello. Hi, great to be here. But actually very fascinating books. Anywhere from in Japan, where I once worked and the Japanese one of the Japanese couldn't understand why. Young blond female was in the job. I was in his blanket myself, looking at the financial times. Now for the past quarter-century because I've written always entirely about economics and finance a business. You want to see
you that I must have a PhD in What NBA or after 6 or something like that? Because the last two decades weather quantitative degrees usually. But I actually have a PhD in cultural anthropology, which is the branch of social tonight to look even culture and back in the late, 1980s and early 1990s. I was based in the preschool, one just north of Afghanistan. If you visualize Afghanistan in your mind, that kind of what time she gets done is like, and I did at EC that I'm studying Tachi wedding rituals and what that reveals about
Islamic identity and they then Soviet communist system. And how did your research and tajuk wedding ritual, help you go sexy and write the brilliant fool's gold, which helped Explorer JPMorgan and Wolf Street Street, and then you went into the side of a fact, which will leave us at the dangers of group thing and how to broaden out and now it and provision, you really offering them very compelling and fascinating intellectual framework. How did that Journey happen for you. And she's awesome. That'll I must say so many. Many, many
years. I didn't talk about my weird background in the eyes of most grown-ups in the city of London, all the business Community. Will the policy-making world. My background was completely weird. If not as One bank, one told me completely happy as well and what that really started change in 2008 when the financial crisis gave everybody awake. Hold to the idea that actually algorithms an economic model cannot explain. Everything in life has been a lot of everything
really interested in the last few years, to take City with covid-19 and the pandemic. I like to explain why later really happened. Because at the end of my research process and if you aren't under pologist, what you do is you study human sculpture by. Basically a must for yourself into a community. Or you did traditionally send Mike a slipped off in the mountains, really quite remote area and I lived in an out-of-town g go with a family in Tajikistan, you know, I basically dressed by the time I spent on cheek because no one else already spoke English. I looked up with
goats eye. Looks all the babies. I did the household chores. I basically live. With with the family at the end of that period of study, that was tragically a very brutal Civil War. Soviet Union break, what happened and originally got involved in Journey as a really ugly out of Human Rights reasons and because I wanted to be a reporter and join their teeth because it was the publication interested in somewhere as remote. And where does Tajikistan? And one thing led to another and they said to me well will give you a program and
basically enroll in our training program, but she's going to have to learn about economics and finance. Amethyst reaction was God how boring because, you know, I came from a background of cope with studies and really thought that's what I want you to do with the award potion on the most important, things to the financial times headquarters originally old mats on sufferance and spent a few weeks in the academic team. And then suddenly realized this totally obvious point, which is it the
way that money goes around, the world is incredibly important, and if you don't understand it, then actually don't really understand how power works in the world. And then I realized, I actually the people who look at how many girls around the world, tend to make a crucial mistake. Would you think that the only thing that matches is money? Money is a code for invisible contacts. So I miss you too drunk to trying to find a way to combine the two, to look up, money and finance. But you look at it in a cultural and political contacts and two. Call Buddy career that John is doing that. That's
really my story and I went to all I spent many years as a reporter covering Finance eventually I end up running the financial section of EFT in the cool things that I became passionately interested in the whole world, by the rippingtons on well, before most people were looking, and I did so very much because of my training. And then went on to cover business culture, in general, Trump's America, where I ran the editorial operations, for the St. In America for a while. And also most recently
lost attack and Silicon Valley, again with very much with the Anthropologist land. Which is such a fascinating introduction than into what rules with diamond, see, with your butt because you talked about really fascinating things there. And I wanted to ask you, you mentioned. There's been a lot of companies are hired as a psychologist Western companies and I wanted to ask you are Western anthropologists studying the rest of the world as much as the rest of the World's End apologist for studying the traffic at the moment. It is more one-way, traffic and then is a profound
tragedy and I hope it changes Anthropologie in the 19th century pouches. Frank zizzi, Victorian Empire, or the other European Empires in the Miss Universe inside a shameful condition because the Centre of the time, when the two in England and In Shape for Life with convulsed by Charles, Darwin's theories that Eeveelution and they would love interests, not just and physically. What you the realm of physical anthropology, biology bones, that kind of stuff and the question of how,
and why different societies had involved in a cult will sense that you had a number of European societies and the Americans that were trying to are the justify imperialism and expansion and slave trade in their eyes in their Empires and they want you to convert and control them text with them. Talk some trade with them excetera. So they were really strong interest in 19th century in trying to understand the other someone that seemed different from the Western European civilization. And yes, that was very much time. Do you do with a very imperious races Mo? What
changed in the twentieth century? Was it an apology as a discipline did a hundred? And when Samantha colleges looking at strange, all the people from the comfort of the universe is the Ivory Tower or the colonial bungler. She went out and lived among them. They realize just how wrong-headed it was to see him. The Western Tucson. She was Superior. An anthropology went from being a champion of racism to bring the Bastion of anti-racist Dort and the Nazis burned Anthropologist books and things like that. And they went into a basket of the anti-colonial,
many of the ideas found in the diversity movement. It's not as movement and lgbtq Oregon is absolutely opposing Champions, which is tolerance and inclusion, but unfortunately, He is a most anthropologists will emanate lightning from the privilege, West and wild. So the traffic's hens to be one way of looking at Northwestern. They're all some on the floor, just rolling and apologists who are now sleeping the lines. And I need to be a lot more than we live in the early 20th century that it was
completely wrong with you that he was somehow Superior to Northwestern. I want to that realization then came, another equally important intellectual stat, which was the actual AIDS. If you think the oldest out of the body wall, then they got to looking at another Society cannot. Just help. You understand the other Society, help me. Flip the land. Look like it yourself. And look at the Winton Road as much, if not more than the Northwestern wild to try and understand the culture pack. They shape anybody, whether you're in an Amazon warehouse on Amazon jungle. We're all
human creatures of our environment. And you mentioned this with the relevance that I think are are clean to work in artificial intelligence might find interesting just to talk about anthropology studies, what it means to be human, but what's interesting is I think you might be coming at it from a different question as an apologist. Then people in AI who often are looking at this, in terms of questions of Consciousness, and how are you think? Anthropologist might help people working? Artificial
intelligent answer. This question is what it means to be human or three ways that it would like to think about would like all the second day on Anza College. Intelligence, intelligence. Obvious is the Anthropologie dresses. That if you're going to look at anything, you need to look at context context of the people who creating a high today. And the degree to which they are, or are not representative of the type of thing that they are trying to capture is crucial. And I know to the credit people in the AI industry
researchers, but that needs to be developed much more second wave of a question of how it is used on a social context of that. And the Apple contacts on how that's changing is another area where actually Anthropologie, because I had a lot of people amazing people who are these issues as a whole new up-and-coming world ecology and championed by groups, like Jay Transit Authority in New York, and others, and some tech companies are actually hiring at the college's. So using them to do that. I described in my books out until
Use a chance to look at different attitudes toward staying, faithful recognition and differences between China and America. And how that suburban, and it's very useful way. And very, very essential in a way that I've been working with others to look at the dishes. And I'm very interested in you by the frights. I think the second day I can help us a. I feel like one is a general sense that Something I passionately believe is it in the late Twentieth Century. We created a lot of an amazingly,
good tools to make sense of the world with navigate with like like big data programs, like like corporate balance sheets are used for, but they all suffer from a potential flaw which is what they are bounded by a decision of what importance to put into that model and things out the sex novelty. And there's something wrong with that because you have to have a defined by input and they can be useful. But you have to also remain aware of contacts, what not in your model, and I'm supposed to
check and balance. And make you think about what's outside? The mother, to the image. I use is of a man and a woman walking to a job with at night with compass. And if you're working in Pitch, Blackness, you don't want to throw Compass, because it's useful. If you will feel good and just look down on your compass all the time. You're probably going to trip over a tree root opening. The tray do eyes and look around and that's kind of an apology. And they will get your look up and around and see contacts from old. Is it the other areas in
the part II is doing a brilliant job of trying to track patterns of cultural Consciousness interaction, you know, it does not often by observing. But Carnation is not saying it's cool vacation. One of the amazing things that make us human, is it happens? I'm not just a note static the ever-evolving, which is good thing by the way and often quite contradictory. And to understand that this is not I will understand, you know, just think about jokes. Funny jokes.
Every time until the joke, you saw the great and divine and reinforce a sense of community cuz you have to have a, she had called her when is to understand a joke. And if you get the joke you a part of the invoice. If you drive your car to that's kind of sexual boundaries and patents being created, which you can machines may or may not be able to wear Flats and Taps up by playing off the multi life of culture. And I would question maybe someone who wasn't a, I can tell me, but I would question whether I can get that will
generate that kind of country pay element stands that people tried to crack jokes with AI, but the fact that they're not very good that might indicate why I needs a second type of AI. I love that you're in. Rather than asking can machines think it's. Can they be funny? Zeki issue? Cuz machines can do logical presents thing. They can do what we as far as if you would just ask you to do rational or logical. But I don't know. Anyone's been as you find an AR platform that can tell a good joke.
That is a great question for this context audience. If anyone knows, it'll be, this crew has something more serious. And I'm being a bit because we have another talk. That's happening later today or not. It's possible to do a sickle research or ethics research research into ethics such as and you touched on some really interesting experiences of anthropologist questioning. The ethics of working with the military at the corporate thinks you to add and contribute to
people who are having the AI ethics debate. Absolutely. I do. This is an area which is incredibly controversial. Inside the answer. Am I fully expect the same people who are working in the academic staff will be upset. I talk to my book. The kids that's a large proportion of people in the app. Anthropologie Community, who was so ashamed. Understandably of the unpleasant origins of an infantry. I've ever wanted that it was just into those from, it's good. We will do
they think it's completely wrong with an apologist to work for a power structure? Or anyway, whether that's working for military group on whether that's working for, in some cases. The government has apologized would say that I should be working for a company like until it's telling me everything. I'm supposed, she should stand for because I actually they should be not helping companies make more money was not how to sell more products can see with eyes and
probably more of a realist in the sense that I actually think there is a rope Anthropologie in company. Am I able to think this absolute your roles as Balaji in government policy setting the ministry issue is obviously a lot more controversial that one long conversation, but I do think that the role of anthropology and Company. I think that is going to help companies be more mindful three ways. They were mindful of the people that setting to Wood Products and there is bang you and Silicon Valley, me waking up and realizing that
that customers on August name as 25 year old Pro computer program, assisting in a dorm somewhere in Palo Alto, the actually the mindset of people that crazy put up for it different. So that point one is I do enough. Good point to you, is, I do think that I'm devoted to have a lot to say about ethical and social attitudes, towards the part of the crating and that debate needs to be sent a second, cuz I do not think. Mint word for people who develop these products are particularly. Well placed to make these crucially important decisions about the type of product at
The Ballantyne. Urgent need for the people developing a stop to basically stop staring at the dollar that compass look, up and around to use Atwood image again, and only enough people who is Alex Cobb to see your clan Chief who won last summer and said, what's the factor of world societies? Outsold the creation and development. Always felt like I owed to a small group of geese in his wacky, quit smoking and they can squeeze out. To them and responsibility or when equipped to do it because this tunnel vision. If she has, you can really help.
Is simply by school thing, by extension. Companies to fit the lens, in the back of themselves and the tragedy of what's happened so far, that Silicon Valley and Technology have hard as apologizing to look at the customer's, they called them and and how can the US ux design. Space helps? They hiring Anthropologist now, to look at the ethical implications of the goods that we re a program where they have nuts on it. What they need to do is also called the Anthropologist to fit the lens, and look like a damn self and see how their own tribal patterns inside, the tech company shape, how
they're acting and develop products. What kind of unspoken caught four passes influence Health Technologies, developed excetera excetera. I say don't want by looking at the amazing work that day. She has is not his doing in New York or look at Microsoft that deserves credit for having a really interesting pool of anthropology. Working with empty, but Mary Gray, who, what? With another computer scientist to look at 12 cuz I'm looking what Genevieve's doing down in Australia in a look at some of the work that's being done. Looking at say that, you know, the racial
Packers in terms of different color is little walking down with Tricia and SWAT is looking at the use of big data and I are Wolf Street in anthropology perspective. What that means about cyber-security much much more There's something that you mentioned there about something unspoken and you, you talk about this in your book of listening to Social Island. And that's for people that have been to become familiar with that term. What did you mean? When you say, you're not just listening to what people say
or matching with their words are to their actions, which I think most of us can go around. It seems the difference in the way. My book stretched. It is around 3 next week, 1 lines, and lines of people seem strange to you, to get embassies, no point of you, another way of thinking. So it's basically about making what animal is called the strange Samilia. I need to do that, not just get Embassy for another point of view, which by the way, is incredibly important, these days in the world, with your first globe, globe, life.
And looking back at yourself. It's probably the best way that you can start to see yourself clearly as well under this wonderful Chinese proverb what you did and if we jump out of a fishbowl looking as apology, you Embrace culture shocks on the stand for what is different from you. But you also do it to look back at yourself and know what that perspective. Gives you that thrill inside out from the sex is making a strange from strange about the areas of noise thought of
bubble elf. The errors of Silence on this is so important for big data and I I look very hard for people to talk about. They try to look at the areas of the world which of the like the blank spaces on the map. The parts of the world. That no one actually even notice it because it's either to do. Orbitz I'm taking for granted or it just seems dull and uninteresting it. In the cracks of all kind of mental taxonomy, and classification systems, or also because I'm wrapped up in language, which seems to be Kiki and
dull, and boring and technocratic. I mean, today, if you want to hide something Western Society, James Bond style plot or some kind of, you know, after the skin has something to do with wrapped up and Kiki language, and everyone just that I did not because that's what happened with friends or relatives before. 2008 is what happened with an ad Tech weld before. Cambridge analytica is happening with my security, to recently, excetera excetera without apology. If they do, they trying to go into a situation and listen,
not just for noise, but the silence and darkness comes to What are people not looking at? What are they? Not asking? And one of the questions I'm curious about, and I don't know the answer too, cuz I'm not trying to say I love this field is you want to greet and Big Data processors, are trying to pick up digital signals and crumbs. If you don't want to finance that strikes me as very crucial what you're saying is if you want to look for the next big thing that you're looking to be a head either for opportunities or her wrists. That's the tool to use the
thing that doesn't make sense and I remembered in an intervention, but also improves go to talk about this. So, that's how you got into your incredibly prescient call about the When I was running late to school, the next column in 2004 the financial times at The Back Page County Section. What am I even asked me to do a kind of memo on what we should be covering at the anomalous,? Which was that we already had about finance. And then I thought, what would happen if I stopped and looked at the silence and the cost of the city of London, which were expanding, I need Focus,
but not discussed in public and you showed me was it? If you knew to League City of London, State Prison, the equity markets where the areas of noise because they were on the front page of the St. Every day. I'm the area of Silence was in new with shadowy sector credit because it's boring. I just feel nasty and they listen to this amazing story about some ABCD. I think about, you know, I didn't actually tell you what was really happening in the city of London
and we all woke up + 2,000 + 7 + 8 + 1, that's a thing, which is basically blowing up the financial system. So that's one example is going back to the directions to Sachi group in New York. In the boys, to study of teenagers use of cell phones and There's an issue with every single parent is probably worried about including myself and 99.9 to send the people. He's going to study that I've done it by looking at the teenager cell phone and watching what they did with a cell phone and looking at cell phone technology. What Dana did
was 101, on Tripoli? She she went out and spent a long time, observing Network for teenagers in the totality of that lies and observing them just as I observe the people in Tajikistan The Village. So, no, I did my own research could be realized with it. Cell phones with a noise ever was talking about. The Silence, was, what was happening in the will physical world, two, teenagers alongside cell phone and the crucial point was it? If you do about a hundred years ago in American and large parts, of European Society teenagers, they could row
and then go to school. They would hang out by the bike sheds. They would lie to other people unexpected away from parents eyes today in Suburban America and parts of Europe teenagers are tightly controlled by their parents, the decree in the scheduled tribes of Jews. Got to let that kids go wandering at night out in the street. They called romance. Lot of people explore in a withdrawal of freedom because of their physical controls, so that they can really run Collide With People. And you need to understand that you understand why Fiber space is so
enticing as an arena full collision and expiration. It's not the only reason this is silence, which is really important. Appreciate in order to friend cell phone debate. There's not a point that you can understand if you're going to study cell phones and Tina just with the priest that I did work questions, you want to ask. If you would go in with a big data set and just try, they kind of smoke signals at the meeting in Fiber space with that cell phones because, you know,
Can you make a great great great points in defense of the importance of the human brain really practical so that people could take away in a check? If they don't read the book for whatever reason to be the same. I can tell you one thing. I love that you said that you do and that you did in your methods. And obviously we would all like to have someone getting people to draw for you, until I was trying out my questions for this interview for your button, so you can see in this mental but
it's a scheme of how I went through your book and I wanted you to share with the audience again for people who are intact and maybe don't understand why you carry around the notebook and pen or how did that break the ice for you and get you to get people to show you? They're maps of reality as backgrounds on a team is diversity of cognition and recognizing that one, the best ways to avoid having television. I'm beings with two dumb is Chachi Hospital, tentative checks, and balances, and Sons
of how you look at the world. And so, for that reason. She's working, I owe any any profession which encouraged to have television on September 3rd, is when they get shop geography, a map of Village, a map of people, a map of the social relations and also a mental map of how they match in the world. Because the way we organize space around us tend to reflect an internal set of cultural assumptions and mental maps of the world. We reflect that when we create space for meeting with Architects. All those options are interesting. She is very good at breaking silence and breaking
the mold because they trained to think about this man,. I'm in quite a bit of the way, the first net first. The MIT media lab was not that. But does she Act of Creation that physical map of physical stay in it? And we'll just believe, is it actually has experience that we think with our bodies as one of our brains, but just wait for that reason in a physical map and how they can be one clue to culture. I don't see how and why it can help us organize our thoughts. And again in the west and all his contacts today, you know, the Whiteboard, you know, that you'll
get sticky Post-it notes. I'm with white stripe going around taxi companies in the body, you know, how much they love white boys. Next to keep posting brightly colored, Post-it notes and how they use that as a way of creating mental map stressing with flaps changing your top. I'm just offering a cognition process to coding. So true acting greedy hog in the questions. I want to make sure we get some image recognition. We were told artificial image recognition, can't do this. Does that mean, is that, is that a question or statement
might still go and how our brains and mines present information on external stimuli? And it may not be as much more rational, than one as one-dimensional is. Unidirectional people think, that's point. One point two is a very important that I put into any discussion about this. It's a read Joseph, heinrichs early this year about a shipping weird, Wesson educated for a western-educated individual Rich. A democratic briefly, was he all he has, is it the way that wears was some people
process information today is an extreme of normally Buy. The sound of the most societies and most times and responsible human history because in a nutshell the very Act of living with reading and unidirectional process, all the SMB information and expressing ideas, which is the Roman alphabet crate, Linnea, sequential kind of Sword and the template television shows that do non literate societies. Where is much more of a tendency to have quick Snapchat and open our picture
down and I would object to that second the middle. So it'll sit down in picture writing systems like Japanese, which I started sweating on his grown up in a culture where you took a pair of chest. I think has a slightly different mental person sometimes as well. For the point. He makes me stronger. Is it psychology as a discipline has done amazing stuff? But almost all of its research subject have been in the material. Cuz it's a hand, which was Weston Hardy educated students because they are the ones that universities, say what psychology has found may not be
universal. Soldier,, I just was thinking about that. I'm not saying may be true, but issues about cognition and image recognition as well. When it comes to the point that has a steam Aid, is there a universal sense of human? Emotion, recognition is very important in that respect and appreciation to contact and checks and balances again. Steven has a second question. I want to just make sure we can do different population. Groups exhibit different approaches to recognition
when I didn't say much but I said I would go back to Joseph heinrichs work and say the absolutely in his work. There is a compromise agree with you, but I see West education students on how they respond to the pictures and what they focusing on what they see. And it's recognizable because I'm using it when I ask questions, but it was a TIA and he's obviously different responses in terms of the brain and eye movement when faced with pictures because I'm not trying to do anyone trained in the. Roman alphabet is trying to do
was think One Direction of sequential manner, they look at Miss higher Snapchat, snapshot and back and forth, and chances are President reasoning. Listen. This entire book is fascinating. I haven't enjoyed a weekend of reading as much as I did. This one in, and I genuinely think it will help all sorts of ridiculous assumption. That this is a soft skill or anything, but it is a complementary science, two more empirical science, and thank you so much for my world going to benefit.
Thank you. And by the way, if anyone from the AI Community wants to get in touch with me, and I'll answer my questions about jokes. I would love to hear about that. Grace. Fantastic, thank you, boo. Thank you so much. Stephanie and Jenny and for this incredible Insight on different subjects, important to provide checks and balances on technology. And I think you made some pretty tricky questions for anthropology. An industry will be at picking up a copy of the session, 19th, recommend us to do that as well. So I think
he won the Academy stays today, but we do have one more event. But what if you, what she should. Stay tuned. 5 p.m. David Martin. The author of a new world and humans will be talking to ffft columnist. Do I delete her about how I will unlock new ways to serve fundamental needs? The don't go away. Join us at 5 p.m. And don't forget, you can't unscrew Festival, hashtag 2021 to continue the conversation and joy.
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