About the talk
Construction takes 3 years and operation is 30 years, what should be the focus for the owner? The panel aims to understand why Property Management should be a part of the construction process. Also, explore if design reviews and the importance of operation in design and construction save significant money?
Early involvement of the operational teams
Impact of design reviews
Challenges involved in transition and handover period
With experience in Management, Consultancy and Operations, Yunusa is a well-recognized professional with well-rounded knowledge and experience of the built environment. He is a Chartered FM professional (MRICS), a registered Asset Management Professional (AMP), member of the Institute of Asset Management (MIAM) and a Certified member of the Institute of Workplace and Facilities Management (CIWFM). Yunusa holds a Master’s Degree in Facilities Management and has experience delivering FM consultancy and FM operations across multiple sectors including Commercial, Hospitality, Residential, Cultural, Retail, and Educational sectors.View the profile
Playing a vital role driving innovations and digital transformation by contributing to the development and delivery of National and International standards, guidelines, and Strategies in MENA, Singapore and UK. As well as establishing innovation programmes and implementing large-scale initiatives on enterprise-level, country-wide or global basis with strong leadership abilities for identifying, building cases and developing smart solutions that are responsive to the needs of rapidly growing cities, organizations and industries.View the profile
A dedicated FM professional with over 40 years experience, recently joined Bawani DFM to head up their Facilities management Division. Part of the renowned Bawani holding, we self deliver Integrated FM solutions as well as FM Consultancy and Transition Management services.View the profile
A Senior Asset Management professional and entrepreneur with 25+ years of exceptional track record in senior positions within global entities, for both the Public and Private Sector. Proficient in driving all aspects of Operational Asset Management, Real Estate Development, Facilities Services, Business Development ventures and complexView the profile
It's a welcome back everyone and I hope you had a good networking session. So we're all set to start our session to and today we're talking about the importance of transition management when going from a construction to an operation stage. So before we start the discussion, I would like to introduce you to a family here today. So we have here with us a doctor and his bottle, the director of the center of excellence in Mark construction and associate professor of the
units. I mean to be senior consultant from Gregory and Jones can talk to us, please note that the Q&A will be held in the last 10 minutes of the discussion. How to stop posting your questions during the course of the discussion and we do have a networking lounge with an assigned tables. If you want to take the discussion out there, post to session, to feel free to do so over to you. Mr. Thank you in such pain management degree. When we talked about transition management. There is a misconception of looking
at the Handover stage of the project. Where are you have? The operational team being brought in weeks are just a few months prior to hand over and expected to transition the building again to smooth operation of face. so, this is A very delicate process at a very delicate. During any projects life. It's important that the transition management is successfully done in order to achieve operational life of the project. So I'm I'll chat with you on Michael typically
having the sister. Of course, the challenge of having the operational team brought in at the eleventh hour at expected. Everything successful. How would you go about ensuring that doesn't happen or communication? A person asset owners. That isn't what transition is to lie about Let me start with saying, why I think we come in at the last minute and I think traditionally would be brought into last minute because the client wants to save money and they think that this will save the money enough. Some extremely naive,
you a false economy if you like. So, I think the the lesson he is to demonstrate the failure of all the projects, from a transition team, or an operative being brought in at the last minute, demonstrate the failures, and the costs of the failures. There, for the value of bringing the transition management team in, in the area. I think they listened very closely to money. And that's perhaps why they want to try and save money, but they need to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture in my opinion. The sooner you bring somebody in to
assist. Moving towards the operations, the best long-term results, and Achieve long-term results will be That's correct. Let's direct connection to that service provider from a service provider perspective. Especially, you know, where are part of a large organization that house in order for development on going to see your value as a service provider for coming in early for transition being recognized by in his asset owners of the development. You Absolutely. It is very important and essential and crucial for the success of any project as a transition from
operation. Unfortunately rarely receive this is happening. Usually we are invited to attend a few weeks before that. You were sealed off the building. It is very important for the contractor requirements. This was my mission will require additional budget and some kisses that you can do a small developers. They don't have a time department. So the recruitment of the operation, she also has delayed. The project is completed, and over is April place. And the operator is
not important and that the client is at it. So you have the Philippines taking over and handing over to another. This usually need the offense company service provider in a lot of issues during the VIP. Supposed to be empty. Sometimes it takes years to get this resolved and the operation is so I'd like to find stakeholders in the operation and Son fight sometimes. Talking about the stakeholders that you mentioned it, in a multiple stakeholders being involved now. You're honest, you have a
lot of Engagement with the smart construction and you know, new construction and all that. So how do you see that affecting the transition and hand over. So when the construction team development, you sound smart Solutions and how they tend to develop. Is there a look at the transition and how they can transfer this knowledge on to the operational. Absurd, it also Echo. What my clients are excited about their unique processing, line, sets and things to do with the contracts and watch it. When it comes to that,
and not have to shift. And I have to change one of the reasons why is because now looking at the small construction in the effects of doing things better and can expression face of the design phase that we can make sure. We we think we ended Minds which is the operating assets managers. And end with, ER, we need to we, we have been realizing the fact that a lot of operations and city manager has a lot more advanced than what we have in the construction industry. And we all know the construction industry. It is, it is doing his best to to innovate and then be more digitized and then be
more smarter. So when when providing buildings, the whole structure, I want to say. Don't mean technology perspective. Both. So, you know what to do, but it's livable space. Ice places that could be maintained operated in the best way possible. Also provide asset, that could be more sustainable when it comes to health and safety. And in the space that we have a visit Mondays and operatives as we call them from the very early stages even from the design phase. Now, we need to talk about transition
management. It should be transition management, should be should be a nation behind over stage because if anything, the building should be. We all know that the client is involved and and for the same reason, I think the operation should be correct. Woman Face lyrics, someone comes in to take over building which leaves also looking at the common problems found during transition, you find defect that cannot be easily rectified because they are integrated as part of the design of the project and then you find it. Oh, there's an
extreme cost associated with rectifying. That defect so positive in a project try to live on with that defect and find a way of escaping it to operations. Now Michael, you spoke earlier seemed to know cost if you see. I think this is where it's kind of connects like looking at how The Operators or FM service providers can help mitigate this issue of cost during taking over a project, finding designed effects. So, what would you say is the best approach that that looking at, you know, the early involvement and
design during design for Nothing, just just a round up. The last point. You should almost be preparing for transition at the design stage. So getting things in place so that when they construction is coming to an end. It's ready to hand over cuz you thought about the right through the whole process. One of the services we provided is FM, design, reviews. And we've done many of these for many types of project development. And although we, we we don't, it's, it's not value, engineering exercise. We don't do it to save money. However, I have yet to do a design review where we
haven't saved money. If you take them both off all recommendations babysit to say, typically the same things again and again, and again, Designers, don't particularly think about how the building will operate. They don't think about how you will be able to maintain it. You don't think about whether it's staying at accessible. Don't really think about that. They think. Does it look pretty will it with me in the world? Will it with me? The next project? The next tender? I'm so design
defects. Yes, but it's in my opinion because it to think about those things when we do an FM design review. We we try to to come up with a practical solution, which is still beautiful. What is practical and it won't just be beautiful for the first 6 months. He'll be beautiful for the same years because it's a practical design, which does operate, and therefore, does make money. So, therefore, this money to maintain it and keep it beautiful not operable.
And it's going to take the space or the wrench will plummet. And if the rents promise, there's no money for maintenance. And that's a down with psycho. So, from a hundred percent, a good quality FM. Design review, will leave you with a very good asset right through the whole life, cycle of the acid, from beginning to end cradle-to-grave. Rich, and I asked you this as a service provider, you would have access to the issues. You paste based on a note design defect, send a poor design on Michael put it. Is it something that will be useful for service providers to
kind of put together. You know, how do you recognize him which goes into project at an early stage kind of convinces developers of the value of, you know, design reviews and bringing up with this early. I think that everybody acknowledges the importance of design review developers. Do they have a design? Guidelines to fail by FM? 99.1. That includes Christmas is under conditions of FM of evidence collection of material that defines what is required to operate properly and
is that your fetus? Is that your face in here is a window, is the developer willing to spend more money to comply with the requirements. They can be consideration that the cost of the building Corporation usually is not paid by the development, do some developers to transfer the coast from the, from the development. Who do position budget, which it, which is played by the, by the owners of the individual units. Are you, this is the biggest challenge that you feel good, architecture and engineering
production, job. They come with a Crazy Design. The beautiful multiple Awards cleaning and require maintenance, and I need access. And I need, I need space for Creative Design. And bioengineering. What's, okay. So why do you need this? And it's a small thing for the for the architect, or for the designer of the project manager, but for us and I'm not talking about design defects which grow much more of that by design. Design quickly. I'll give you an example.
We design review on a very tall building, which is going to be built in Jetta. Now, throughout that building it's going to be something like 280 stories. And above story 142 was not one clean his room. At one of the storage was in the basement. And all of the office space is in the basement. I'm, we proved the after spending additional Capital to find little space has two small storage areas as small office spaces. It's save them, 896 million, Rio across the life of the building.
Revenue-cost walking Wages. That's after the additional capital. You can save the huge amounts of money if you get it, right, and it will cost you a huge amounts of money if you get it wrong. I have a similar that I have done in similar example at the hotel 800 rooms Skyscraper with them, they canceled. How many, how many meters did he do? How many you need to to collect the elevator and the Toadies? Upon request because of the separation between affects and effects
of myself to so many projects, you know, we talked about the moment we hand over the project about the capita GDP expenditure. How much is 11 million? But we as as as as as as as as as the construction team would look at it as extra work to be done during the project phase so that they do, what they would all agree during the money, especially during the budding flowering stage. That's why we have to find out if they actually there or not because the offense isn't his problem and I agree with that, but if a developer is developing your building and will be renting the building. Then the high
operational costs and jumping a high service charge and particularly now when there's a lot of empty Flats, tenants can choose where to go based on rent and service charge on the Chevy truck. Reflects the standard also the cost of living in the suburbs, really, to be honest. Correct, correct. Another issue with the transition. Is the objectives. We're talking about these multiple stakeholders. They each have different objectives. So you have the construction team, tried to hand over and exit. The one that isn't a fan in a date
that should. Then when I went exactly. Are you asking the operator or FM service provider? You're licking every element gymnastic. Sorry. I asked you, and you piss, how do you suggest balancing these objectives? When you have once a cold or trying to exit and wattage is coming in. So, how do you reach the balance? Then it's goes back to the design review and the Heart of the construction, RFP of the Federation and you so you have to the channels that were facing
further developments is when you talk about that, the collection of data is an example of what is the definition of how rich are you, expecting the been contracted to provide you with that? I said, this is what is the definition of an asset which format to be used for providing this? What is the requirement? What is, what type of gas bill to draw ninjas? Require another problem? I've seen many many cases during my career. It is very rare that you find that actually has with the growing
from the management team. So the definition of what is expected back from the construction. Operation for a bruising of this in the construction RFP isn't is very important and unfortunately, it's not happening. There will be a cost impact. Some contractors, won't understand the requirements of the end which religion which would oblige them to use a left and consultant or an FM Xpress which which will create an additional. But again, this would save a lot of
money on the developer and down the operation at the hand over and over of Huaraches. In which what type of phone is this. The last thing that you want to do is to buy a run auntie and don't hand it over to our Joy. FM on FM is not aware of it or you look up that I do permutation and you lose it, especially when you talk about talk to him what it feels like waterproofing. That's something that you speak with you. They don't have the right documents. You will lose you, write something that you paid a fortune for that. You're not benefiting direct,
Atomic spoke about assets information, which is very crucial to the transition stage. With the emergent Benton construction. You have the major projects to know. How is this transition into operations in construction. They're developing Bim for construction, but that information is vital to operating the building as well. So how do you see this transition of babysitter or acid information to construction and operations? I'm sorry. This has been miss one of the physical issues and topics discussed quite
widely different countries and different organizations to pack. Approach this differently. I'll go back to the main issue of of the transition that we have between in this is this will clarify this issue, another issue as well and coming from from from a project. Delivery face. Do a lot of effort to make sure that we do deliver something nice viable for this operation because of the issues that we have, whether it's there that the client wants that weathers the cooking
process that we all used to. And we know it's it's it's it's not it's not right because of the conference that we have because of the bullshit saying that we we we talked about that. Stop us from from working in English mean. As it is with him. During the construction, phase, we have issues between hundred number from the design phase the construction phase. Nevermind from the construction phase of the operation. I know there's a lot of contracts with the husband wants to resolve this issue where we have, you know, build and operate.
The transfer as we have this as the design and build contract to resolve these issues, but still doesn't doesn't radiate. Rectify. However, to go back into Temple, PD builds and operates contracts, that we would have thought or designed to operate a contractor. May come in design. The actual Aztecs build and operate. It. Would you seem that we do? See, how did you think about the if it has he ever staged it? Do we want to make sure that they did, you have some assets
that they can manage? Whether it's the, the the information that they need to go back in in printouts, even if it's a project has delivered during the project with them. Whether it's the right thing or not. We shall hand over to do drawings because you know, the regulations sizes bigger than just a project development operation and maintenance has to be with information on the building is a whole room for $300 and it is a specified dream. We have all the documents printed out and, you know, the likes of Michael and, and, and Eric will have to go through every time
they they, they, they take over of a building with the shift with them has been shipped to me coming from the UK, with the, with the, the bin Monday and the requirements. A nonprofit project. Now we see it is a lost shift away from that. Would you see? There's a lot of people has been thinking about the asset information that would you see about develop has developed a movie called and I are with your requirements requirements. Would you see the shift? But still if we don't tackle the issue from from the foundation and then then look at the
capex and Opex issues and then look at they mind us and the way we we we look at asset or the construction phase, in general that we could, we could fix that. I don't think it does provide us with enough information. That should be in in a way that has all the information that you need information. I think I'm going to have to shut lights on Michael right now because I'm seeing from what time, everything needs to be defined of the early stages talking about
electric Wireman doctor on this, as well as saying, you know, this week to set up from the car from Foundation of it. Now, a consultant come comes out since I didn't kill Michael. You are in the best position to create a level affect a playground for everyone together. The requirements of operations at early-stage because as you mentioned, you're involved in design reviews and consultancy engagements, how do you see that being accepted by the asset owners over? You know, how is their
response? I having these requirements included, a supposed to typically have in construction guidelines and hand over. Thanks for the contractor. But also from an operational perspective adding an FM input to the employer's requirements. Generally, it comes as a complete surprise because it's something that you've not thought of a toll. It's it's something that we always suggest and depending on the maturity and sophistication of the client. Sometimes they recognized about you. Sometimes you don't again as a sudden and Elia Eddie dancer
money talks and the best way to demonstrate sits with the investment, is to demonstrate what it could cost them. If you don't invest as very, very small relatively, very very small amount of money at this stage. I'm picking up on Terex pointer and, and your question Eunice. Specifying. What you be doing? Yes, that's a big part of. It is very, very simple solution. Again. It goes dum, dum. The money that sold separately. The deal. Tension should not be released unless the organization's director
of FM a device. Am I the operations? Whatever? Whatever. Ever Legends a sign of retention director. The guy who's responsible gogel? Who's responsible to operate the building? They have to sign off that. They received the information. They got what they need. It's accurate, they had sufficient training, sufficient systems operational training all rested, and when they sign, that's when retention gets released, that would kill it just like that. Training is not mention training requirements. Not mention the RFP.
Does he order contractor? That's going to go to the right or if he completely agree, should develop a set of FM requirements and over, that's an appendix in the Construction contract, very, very clear and it's also a close. Very, very clear that the retention will only be released. Once the guy responsible directive FM beloved is signs off that he's satisfied and is willing to take the building. Am I going to be in bed? Because it has because one one thing is is
Andover checklist, which we had thought it was a big difference between what the facility, management operations, Team sets that has built drawings, should be and what they would be going back to Aunt and other stuff. Which is you know, that the requirements of the project and Cetera. We we have as bills that we can never go back into it. Anymore. They already been buried in. Whether there is a concrete, whatever you can find out, if they don't know. But the operation seems, I did not attend. What? What you draw the line
idea. And the concept behind that is the end of the day. This project has to be that the only way you can, you can really make sure that you provide something nice feasible for and usable for the 6-month option is to make sure they have a say in the fracturing. The project is to hold in retention. That leaves a lot of issues as I can. And thank you for sharing that just to be honest. I think the bottom line of all this looks really ironic is when the construction contractor in
his into a b. So we had responsibility to make sure it's right when he gets off. Betty, I running. If you tell me that it was going to say, I was going to be there and say that it's it's not really fair to say the design team of the contract operation has said there is a lot, you know, you do have a client's that comes to you and say, you know as soon as possible, what does limited budget into value engineering you spell make sure you do buddy, engineering to make sure you get rid of some things. So you are
precious to do that. You are pushed as a contractor or designer, even though you really want to do the best. And sometimes it is my operation. You really can't because you really Limited Had to be fair with that to the construction industry in the past. So that traditional contractors will not understand the requirements of the operation of the format and all of this that so I didn't go. So this will require a lot of investment from the song is this. Correct. We have a question from Rihanna, same, all directions to to you Michael.
It's question is how Property Management involvement, and smooth transition process. So, the involvement of the property manager, ultimately when a building is is in operation, than the property manager, is representing the client and overseeing, the work of the FM providers. Do they have to have the right mindset that you have to have to write out a time? If you like. It's an investment. Not the cost. I am up a property manager. Has one of the cool criteria
should be protecting the value of the asset and from a property management perspective. How'd you do that by maintaining High rentals and keeping the building in good condition, high levels of service? All helps to do that? After I tell optimal cost, should we say? I believe, in not, if they believe in that, I'm, they also pushed for that. They have two clients yet. It's calling trust to the client should listen to them, but the property manager will only say what we hopefully will say if they believe in the message, correct, correct?
Okay. To examples, you gave the Towering Inferno. So, so, so, so asking how for these problems can be mitigated because it's all coming out to cost. So now this case studies. Both of you are talking about I'm pretty sure a lot of people on face similar problems. Going to be a helpful to kind of put together and all these Chase studies and the impact that these operational involvement ass on projects in. Cuz if you look at them as an example of them is solely based on, you know, case studies that have proven the impact of them when it comes to cost saving. I know Sunil
something, you know, if value to do a similar thing for early involvement and you know, the value of transition management and kind of put together these examples that all of you are stating and Hanson Lake, put out the value of this and maybe that might help, you know, creates a more accepting environment University. Look up, sending this money not just focusing on and it becomes a balance between capex and Opex. Putting this information out there and
potentially sway people's mindsets. Surely not think so but it is sold. It is something that we all know, in in Industry whether it's a construction, industry, design industry, all the operational. I think the ultimate solution to this radius is still work together. And I know you mentioned, the workout has been driven for the implementation of Fame. During the construction phase has has, has worked to some extent. Specially specially in the UK and in some of the Region's van. Singapore. Tetra was pushed through this operation
because we have the same day issue as it starts between the handle from a sign theme from a sign face to the construction, phase to the country except we had some of the issues that we talk about now from the Handover in position to this is it that you might want to freshen. So I think the same thing that we We did it all for doing the project. We could do the same thing for the operation in this. A few more important to do if your bro for the operation, but we could all work in any more collaborative environment to see how we can share the information, make sure we can handle with
information when it when it needs to be and you know, I know we would always going to be faced with a capex and Opex issue. That's just the way it is, but the same thing we would face if you don't want it when it comes to that sign facing prescription face to both have different price different day I think is in a bigger scale. I don't you know, what is a starting point to learn from an ancestor to see how we can resolve issue. All right, Belle Tire Kyle direct this question to you.
And we spoke about the stakeholders and each having different objectives about now. Muhammad. Ke aasan in particular coordination between FM team and PMT, especially during transition. So he says there's a lot of conflict between property managers. And after, you're in this stage, how can we improve that? I can't see that. That is a conflict. There is no, some companies that is no. Some development. There is no clear. Definition of floors and responsibilities
and overlap between the two departments of the food chain structure, is the very well-defined budget, reductions stunned by the property management require. The input of everything is going smoothly. I really don't see, I worked in the company's. Where are you at? We used to have Property Management. A lot of clients report to property management or work closely with property management and there shouldn't be any conflict. If the, if the doors are supposed to be
properly. Everything should go smoke. Yes, correct. Their objectives are more closely aligned because you know, they're both moving into the operational phase and both in it for the long term. Okay. Now Michael ask you this question, when it comes to the transition management, the use of standards and like, you know, looking out to the likes of 60 and other standards to use during transition management. Does it help especially looking at this region? Is it suitable? Are there like
guidelines to follow to make the process easier and more smooth? I think we may have lost Michael. I think it was having technical issues. Okay, Michael. I'm not sure you caught my question. No, I didn't say. I just reconnect to the lost. My internet connection. Apologies. Could you repeat the question like to have you back? My question was the use of existing standards such as sympathy of the lights during transition. Do you think? But this part of the world, especially it's quite suitable for new operators and FM
a property, managers to use these standards as guides to help them achieve a successful transition. I think that would some guide, why? Because the the industry in the Middle East is so immature compared to other parts of the world. With its UK Australia, America, where it's very mature, and these standards all over New Ulm. I guess you guys are mostly based in the you. Well, let me tell you doubting my God. It's the wild west. It is so immature. It's just not funny. So I think we should all wear card to Aspire to to help to maturity industry.
And oversee these these these standards of a fantastic at what we should all aspire to. But it's a Jenny on the thinkers as property professionals or clients or Consultants or even FM service provided we have to recognize Jenny and it would be naive to assume that we can just throw a standard on the desk and it will be meth completely. It's naive in this part of the world, but it definitely would it would it understand. I think what you said actually speaks on
just received from Joanne. The taarak ask you a question is around. How would you rate the maturity in the Middle East? So she is talking about the importance of, you know, that I said over there. It's maturity. And how about how do you see the email that you cannot have one big enough for the Whole Food Market? Oman cell. Got to get reception expense CDL, Georgia in between about that because the market is Justin mom, Paula White in the listing, The Fountains you have that, okay.
That's a landlord, even within the way you have them, or you have an owner that owns the Capitol building in Dubai, or in the drawer of the big developers will have their own butts over on the right direction. XM service providers and all of August 4th on Sharpie. And now we have a very broad question bill. But today, I think there's something in there. Asking these issues during transition hand over asking, who should check? Well. Yeah, me too. At the end of the day. I suppose the guy who holds all the cash. I've said several times and
you know, if he becomes a believer in what we're saying, then he will make sure that the Construction contract contains. The right clothes. Is he will make sure the operates his ability to cost. I don't blame in the client. But what I'm saying is the only person who can fix this and talked about is the client was saying about the movements of the of the industry, especially in to buy, we can see there's a lot about a place that has noticed this issue and trying to fix that, you know, the likes of the
amount for the sample and noticed they've established company. Female. That is working closely with that the development team, to make sure that they can make work together on the transition excetera in the Middle East question to buy cuz of the state to buy a house country that exercise. And then the pain. And then, hopefully, maybe somebody will will learn from that special. During the pif project. It's happening already seen that on on some of the bigger projects in in Saudi Arabia where they picking up on this, you know, if there is an issue, however,
the foundation of the supply chain and reflects on that and then, and this is baby in, in, in in Dubai. I have the key to the solution. Mexican Greg myself. Absolutely. Yes, but we all listen to. So as we have just over 5 minutes to this device with heart and words of wisdom for the league. Yeah, I have listened with great interest to all the panelists of said, including yourself, of course units and I think the takeaways listen to FM. It will save you money. Bingo. Cinelli,
don't make false economies invest in the future too. Many people build something and then forget about it. You don't realize that. Bldg 272, Ste 54th years if it's treated well as a long-term investment, it look after you. Coronavirus. I will we is a lot of countries to the economy is date. They tend to build stairs to the roar areas to to build new cities in upstate capture, the expense of the nation and then to build on there, as well. And this is the time where they can
actually learn from the mistakes and and and then build will it will stand for 32 years straight on because we have to do that during the construction phase of building a set. It was really tough thing to to think about the sustainability and then then and the global warming. About what ended minds and listen to the operations of a socket set 15 years before in a year. Background Construction, Construction with the continuous changes in technology, affect me at the casino everyday. We see
a new version of them and you a, I'm too impatient. I Trust You. Lord assignment. You think that will also have an impact on you while you're trying to catch up with this. There's still a lot changing in urine. But, yeah, they use the FAE. I to use a coyote that use the Facebook's winning. This route. Has been captured special sense systems together to make more intelligent solutions or Asians. And more importantly, to do the, the, the way people work. You know, you sent using
senses. Make sure that, you know, that things can be can put on your feet, fix the operated on once, there's an issue or BMO primitive fixation when it does happen, you know, you should know what they should. We could happen to know what the reason is. So This Is Love. Don't make you show that but I know say this for us to have small cities. We have to have Smart the buildings and I'll talk to you. If you money developers need to take into consideration the
population of your business. The motor. Exit point out of the time. We just have two minutes ago. So I Donna. We will thank you everyone to our nearest. Is there a few questions? I wasn't able to attend to, but you can move the questions to the lounge. We're off to the big presents and try to respond to whatever we can respond to and thank you. And thank you, Michael. And sorry for your very enjoyable discussion. Thank you. Thank you.
Buy this talk
Buy this video
Our other topics
With ConferenceCast.tv, you get access to our library of the world's best conference talks.