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The Battle of CeFi vs DeFi
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About the talk


About speakers

Alex Moskov
Editor-in-Chief at CoinCentral
Alejo Pinto
Growth at Pontem
Nathan Bekerman
Strategic Partnerships at Cross River
Bill Barhydt
Founder and CEO at Abra

I do Internet stuff. Alex Moskov is the Editor-in-Chief and founding member of CoinCentral and borrows from his experience as a journalist, entrepreneur, and investor to write about exciting developments in the cryptocurrency and blockchain world. Alex has helped win Bitcoin hackathons, hosted events such as NEO’s Developer Conference, and has interviewed industry leaders such as venture capitalist Tim Draper, Ethereum Co-Founder Joe Lubin, NEO Founder Da Hongfei, Salesforce Co-Founder Halsey Minor, QTUM Founder Patrick Dai, TechCrunch Editor-in-Chief Josh Constine, IndieGogo Founder Slava Rubin, Olympic Gold Medalist and entrepreneur Apolo Ohno, Ledger Founder Thomas France, Boost VC Founder Adam Draper, digital marketer Neil Patel, and more. You can find an over-caffeinated Alex in coffee shops, bookstores, and music venues in New York City, San Francisco, and Miami.

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Nathan is an ex-banker turned entrepreneur. As an accomplished startup founder and evangelist with 11+ years of experience across the fintech, business development, and consulting space. An early adopter who thinks outside-of-the-box to drive revenue and growth. After graduating with a Bachelor’s degree in Accounting and Finance from Bentley University, Nathan joined JP Morgan as a Global Investments Analyst. At JP Morgan, Nathan managed investment portfolios for High Net Worth clients. His client base was focused in the Southern Cone & Andes region in Latin America. After a few years, he was elevated to Global Investments Associate. Following a 6 year tenure at JP Morgan, Nathan decided to begin his entrepreneurial career. In 2016, he Founded Wash My Whip LLC, an on-demand car cleaning app-based service. As CEO, he oversaw the Sales, Human Capital, Operations, and Technology teams. He helped scale the business to a national fleet cleaning company with a presence in 12+ cities and over 65 employees. In 2018, he identified a growing opportunity in the blockchain space and founded two ventures: Genesis Capital Management LLC and Fundbase. Genesis Capital Management consisted of a team of early blockchain adaptors, developers, and Wall St veterans who managed a portfolio of cryptocurrency and blockchain assets for investors. Fundbase is a portfolio management and fund administration SaaS platform for institutional cryptocurrency investments.

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Zamalek, mozgov, I'm the founder, and editor-in-chief of pointcentral. You've been running back to Aptos and 2016, casual, see if I enjoyed our occasional did Jen and I'm perhaps best known for having an entity of the cat. So I am the fire at in 2021. Are we got an awesome panel here? I'm just going to let you guys introduce yourself. My name, my name is Alejandro. I go buy Lego Bitcoin crypto since 2014. I worked at IBM blockchain, didn't her Performance Marketing team then was at Grove marketing. If I buy now I'm leaving growth small

cryptocurrency project. That's essentially connect. The information was crypto over to DMI blockchain so that we can have a bridge between crypto information watching. I'm still part of Abra those of you who don't know ever wear a crypto banking platform allows you to trade a hundred cryptocurrencies. We have a high yield product called ever learned where you can earn 9 to 14 per cent of dollars in about 8%, on Bitcoin in and we have a borrow a product called a borrow that will let you borrow against your crypto Holdings. Buying a house in school loans, whatever we

have about two million customers, know about 100 countries are growing very fast. We manage about two billion dollars. Assets under management has been doubling about every every six months or so, and we're just passed. I think 150 so employees. So great to be Everyone, good afternoon. My name is Nathan Beckman, my friends, call me. I run strategy and Partnerships at Cross River Bank. We banked a lot of crypto exchanges that most of you guys here. Using

we are building the rails for the future of crypto to bring the next billion users into Brookdale. So happy to be here. Here's some shots. Awesome. Thank you given up for panel. Over the last decade beef, I will eat the traditional Finance world in the next. I love to get bills perspective over the last decade, how have you seen the cryptocurrency ecosystem change? As an entrepreneur into space, as well as someone who's been active in the device space as well. Yes, so I think

that what Bitcoin showed us was that independent of scalability, you could have a decentralized money that was infinitely better than anything that any Central entity centralized entity could do it. But that's money is not Banking. And so what is cerium has showed us is that we can start to replace components of the traditional banking world with software. So so when when Marc Andreessen said software is eating the world, it was mostly true with the exception of money banking maybe certain parts of other highly regulated

systems. And so this is the first time that we're actually seeing that statement come true for money and banking turns out The only way to make that statement. True was the disintermediate the people that were in the way in the first place. Not because they're, you know, bad intention. It's just because there is a way to get out of the way. And in so or in the case of people with their finger on the print button, they're not going to take their finger off the front one. And and so so your part one was what's the better money part 2 is? What's the

better banking. Now? I still think we're in a place where Defy is a tool, right? And we use that tool with people to generate yield in the same way that TCP IP is a tool used by other software products. Defy, protocols will be tools used by other software products. And we're super early. It's not something that the average consumer can just go use, but our company can use, And so overtime more and more aspects of the traditional fintech. Kind of ecosystem are going to get a speck

of their functionality replaced by decentralized system for sure. Awesome. And that same vein Nathan, I'd love to get your opinion on. What would be the lowest hanging fruit right now for the Burbank. I just crossed over to start innovating. What are the products that you guys are really excited to build? So the way we think about crypto is I mean, we we started thanking coinbase back in 2014 when no one no one else wanted to thank them. And so anyone who sending an ACH or wire transfer to coinbase

ABA routing number from cross-river. So our killer app right now is the secret do on ramps. We're helping exchanges fintechs and traditional financial institutions on board users. On to crypto. We're looking very strategically at a few other products as well. Including custody trading staking and end in the very short-term Warehouse. Lending. So crypto backed loans. There's a huge amounts of the man that's still on the sidelines that haven't been able to get access

to crypto. So we want to help the businesses that are being built on the rails and give them access. To let you know, fed rails, and AC H's and wires and stuff like that. Awesome. And another Idea that is constantly kind of the definition of back and forth and in crypto, in defy. His how possible is is it for something to be completely decentralized? Like even if you're in an ecosystem, where you're relying on, let's say, stablecoins, those stablecoins are still pegged to the US dollar which is in its essence

of the sexual identity. Get your perspective is someone who's not equal system. Has been in the deep space for a while. I don't think that centralized entities will ever go away. I still think we need some level of Regulation that helps ensure that things are free sample packs of the US dollar in u s e c u s e t s is a good example because these are held by cash or cash equivalents like Bonds in real Banks. So you are trusting that. US dollar is somewhere in a real place, right? It is possible. Maybe

by pegging and they're, there are new protocols that are what it's called rebasing. So, buying or selling Bonds on the open market to maintain a stable table price, but I think we could potentially get there. But I do think that corporations like a cobra. Like even the US government. Do you add a lot of value and making things easier for most users? Most people are not as sophisticated to go in and use a lot of these particles colliding. Particles are not even actually as profitable. A lot of people are

actually losing money and uniswap sushi spot to him for a minute lost except for if you are so but as bees get more sophisticated perhaps in the future, we could be good friends through but I think in the short and middle term, we still need centralizing in order to use this product. Absolutely, and the whole premise of the discussion to the Battle of oxy 5 hours, defy a kind of implies that, there is some zero-sum game going on between the Define the Seas by echo system which isn't necessarily the case bill. I love to get your perspective. Could you

talk a little bit about a product and how you guys are incorporating defy on the back end. And allowing your unit says interface that ecosystem is our field generating service today from App Store Play Store, you can deposit dollars. Like I said, 9% paid in dollars with an extra 5% paid in the rewards token deposit Bitcoin, aetherium Stellar to couple of others and you get in kind interest of around 3%, + 5% paid in the rewards token. Where is that you'll coming from? So, with the dog products and Bitcoin ethereum products. Basically, it's

a combination of traditional collateralize lending, which looks a lot like a prime broker meaning. You're holding all of my stock. My Apple shares, my Microsoft shares. I want to buy a house. I borrow against the shares, the price of the shares moves. Moves against me. I either have to give them more collateral more shares. Were they sell the shares to put me in compliance with the loan and the traditional crypto lending world. That's exactly what we're doing. Okay, you you basically have a certain amount if the collateral that you're posting in crypto moves against, you either have to post

more collateral or the crypto is liquidated to put you in compliance. So that's the majority of the land ebook in a C5 model today, which is how you earn that yield if you're using ever. However, now more and more of, that is being supplemented with existing tools, which is example, if if you put $80 in and USB C or USB C or three would see whatever some of those dollars, maybe put some work to work in 55 pool, which is generator. Higher yields for us, that maybe what we're getting through, lending dollars collateralize the Bitcoin, but it all kind of Blends

together. And so we have a very sophisticated team of people that are analyzing these defy liquidity pools, the smart contracts, the reading solidity code. This is not for the faint of heart, and our experience is that the average consumer even reasonably technical people who do this themselves, or almost guaranteed to lose money. So, what I'm basically telling you is, if you go out and try to use defy Services yourself and you're not doing what we're doing, you were almost guaranteed to lose money. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth.

So what we do is, is we test in ghetto defy pools in small amounts for days and weeks at a time walking with her own money. And before we actually ran up them up and we monitor them real-time 24/7. We're doing things that the average investors, simply can't do. It's still a relatively small part of the overall lending book for us. But we wanted to grow. But the requirements for running a defy base portion of the Lenny book are significantly more complex than just a straight-up collateralize lending. That's the bread-and-butter the business.

And so, you know, we will wrap it over the coming months and we're really excited about it. But there's a misconception that ol, I go to this website, and I see that if I put money in his obvious, you know, curve pool. I'm going to make, you know, 45% return on my money. It's your bullshit. Right? And I don't leave you not going to make that return. If you actually don't know what you're doing, and don't know what the exit strategy is your. You can actually lose every ounce of the returns. Plus a lot of The Returned is based upon the old coin that they're paying you in in the first place,

which is highly volatile. So cycling Falls 80% value, most of your interest is gone, not to mention the principal being at risk for hacks. And so so there's a lot going on in defy, that We're super excited about but you shouldn't just go in blindly because you seen interest rate on a screen. We use it as a tool to blend a better rate with everything that we're doing in the C5 world. And that's what we're committed to doing, you know, exactly know we may expose defy separately at some point soon as something that we're playing with but that's going to carry its own risks. It'll be

separate from a burn. He would never, you know, we would never do that as part of a burn because we manage that actively to get with our banking part. Two person to give the safest safest possible yield. We have a lot of demand from people who still want to try to defy directly and we may do it, but they're going to be absorbing 100% of that. That risk of loss when they do that. Yeah, a little bit deeper into the system for someone who's just jumping into. It is, it's pretty confusing, right? You have to download a Chrome extension while I said, yes, it is by you through whatever. You're

sending, whatever device ecosystem, you're interacting with you, send it over to the wallet and throw it into liquid. And we did a demo where we basically laid out every single step that our retail investor would have to do from scratch meeting first time getting us working. Getting my aetherium witch is which by the way, let's make for tennis this Sunday already done, most places. No chance cuz it's Sunday, right? Unless you want to pay 10% for your credit card, so I can see a weekend first of all, so I've got

to get, you know, somehow my Into the wallet. I got to figure out how to get that Chrome extension integrated with whatever website I want to do. Basically, it amounted to about 23 steps before. I was actually doing a deep sigh transaction. Would you actually lay it out? And so what we've been working on is can we still give people access to defy or any of these? Cuz it actually all works the same way. It's just smart contracts in a way that completely hides. The first 23 steps. And that's what's missing really? When you think about it. And

so we'll see, but that's to me the Holy Grail if you're going to expose defy directly and not just leave it behind the scenes, which is what we've been doing up. Till now, most people are still going through coinbase or fracking which is a centralized company to get you guys being on ramp to defy directly as it is a really good mood. Yeah, there's there's an open source project right now. I forgot the guys name is really interesting. It's basically trying to port metamask to as an iOS

extension for Safari and I've been playing with it. And for the first time I was actually able to buy a Nifty via VIA Safari on an iPhone with no Central wallet at all. But getting it to work with the same 23 steps. It was just now on a 3in screen as opposed to you know, what the 27 in screen with keyboard. That'll be that'll be a good day when that's gone. But maybe 5-10 years experience as it is now, you know, some thinking, and 1/8 and I left it at your experience as a banker turn t5d. Jen. How do you see this evolving for, you know, a cohort of customer that's

financially Savvy. And there might be many in the audience that are very well equipped to manage their money, but it's just haven't taken a leap into d54. It a lot of the complications that bill as described. Yeah, I think one of the great examples of a big coin, is only a month for them to have more Bitcoin wallets than bank accounts in the country. And so the fact that it's actually easier now to setup a Bitcoin wallet, or on some crypto, then open a bank account, says, a lot about the future of the ecosystem, looking specifically, at defy. I mean,

you know what bill is, right? That most consumers are not ready to interact with the world that they probably don't even know what the risks are. They don't understand, smart, contract Bruce. They don't understand, you know, when permanent loss. So that there needs to be some education there. But, you know, the truth from from cross, rivers perspective, will we're really trying to do is to a naval clearly. There's a big difference in interest rates, are in a, you know, the US dollar and what interest rates are in USB C. And the fact that there's a huge

differentiation means, there's a large demand for dollars and not enough supply for. And so we're trying to bridge that Gap and I'm a big believer that you know, what the early adopters are. The ones are going to be able to build on top of that ecosystem. And so back to you earlier point about desensitization. I think people overvalue desensitization as a term. I don't think it's that important. I think desensitization and this may be an unpopular opinion but decentralisation matters to a certain extent. It's not the

end-all be-all. As an example of ecosystem super fast, super cheap rate URI, not as decentralized as a theorem, but still works very well for the regular user benefits. Outweigh the risks of the lack of the centralization. Awesome. Thank you, Nathan. So Facebook had roughly 2.91 billion monthly active users as of quarter, 3 2021, and they've been working on a stablecoin GM that they're expected to launch. I had to leave sometime know, it's been, it's gone. There's no more DM, so they launch

Navi, which is their new wallets, which is based upon the packs dollar. I think it's called usdp. And it, that you simply use that to enable Western Union. Like, we're more like venmo like transfers, but outside the US and they're launching rails in different countries to facilitate money in and out the base. We give you a better cross-border venmo life experience. So for now, The publicly, this is plaintiff and shelves for stablepoint. I do think that they have your

point centralization and decentralization comes at a cost. If you're able to centralize a lot of functions like validators, your offer this at a really great you are at a low cost. Their goal is to have a stable coin, unfortunately, because they are still at large lot of a lot of different governments. For example. See this, as, as of Redskin, probably real risk that if you do have a basket of goods that the currency from all over the world. That if any of these bonds that are backing, the Sable point

that the basket of goods do default that could potentially crash in economy, scale back. Now, they're looking to send The offer almost like a white like a white label CBD. See two countries that don't have that but still offering within local, local countries. Still a stable dock stablecoin attack by either cash or cash equivalents like Bond silvergate Bank. Is there a partner they announced that party should not too long ago so likely that we'll be there, and once we do have more regulation around stablecoins, in the u.s.a.

Likely they'll be able to launch, but still, that's your point. They did launch nobody with another stablecoin other other protocols outside of their own but I think probably smart for them to also have their own that they don't have to pay $30. Like $30 a piece is a great example of its kind of like a private company version of what was so exciting about Bitcoin in the first place. Great, what was exciting about when I was working in the money transfer space when Bitcoin came along? I was running a nonprofit here in in Little Haiti in

Miami, which was helping people, send money back home to Haiti after the earthquake and I was running a 10 million problems, trying to get this going with government Regulators. Just, you know, it was horrible a significant percentage of the problems. I was dealing with because most of the middleman work on people that we're trying to basically put the problems in my way or or seem like at least we're gone and you know, Facebook as kind of a big big player in the space almost like a little government's right that has to do with

other big government is, is basically trying to create their own economy. And what we're finding is is that defy systems are doing it better faster, and cheaper, and and, and at an accelerated pace, so I think they're big advantage today. The only reason anybody care All about demon obvious because they have two billion, Instagram, and Facebook users. Otherwise, no one give a shit. And the reality is, is that just like any other big companies when it comes to this stuff. They're not going to be going to be able to get out of their way as fast as a small group of

developers can develop the, the next big thing which is what's happening now. And then I think what's going to happen with more like that happen is, you're going to see Facebook and other companies take advantage of device systems to solve the problems that the government's weren't going to let them try to solve in the first place, which is what got me out of the traditional money transfer into Bitcoin in the first place, right? Jose still cause like 30. $40 incentive theory on transaction and Technology problem. I'm so, so hundred percent that, you know, if there's a

whole bunch of things that are going to happen from a software perspective to deal with all of the costs of decentralization hundred percent, but that software and it's going to happen. And so, the question is, what role will do is monolithic centralized entities have in taking advantage of those protocols to solve consumer-facing problems. I don't know. We'll see. It's possible that even doesn't need to exist in 10 years because everything we've done can be done in a decentralised way and we simply spin out a bird of you doubt that we are alone. It's

possible. We certainly be a hell of a lot easier than my day job right now, for sure. But right now, it's not possible. So the way from from software, I love to get into the consumer implications of of Define see if I so we printed something like 40% of all US Dollars this year. How do you see people Everyday People? Everyone in the audience, using anything at the FRC fighter combat inflation on the forces in financial advice more. So a theoretical discussion of how do you combat something? That is becoming more of a threat

every day. I might like to start off with a stick it up with Bill Bill also gave the first Ted Talk in 2012 right on bitcoin. So if you were to give that talk again today, do you know what we'd be playing at? So, the premise of the talk was like, 9 years ago, was literally, is the time, right? For a replacement to the Fed. And literally 9 years ago and honestly was because I couldn't figure out a better way to explain Bitcoin cuz now it's very it's relatively easy to explain the basics of Bitcoin. And so the best I could come up with it the

time was is it time for a replacement to the Federal Reserve? Well, like I said, I think, I think we know the answer. The bottom line do is, if it's not going away, the dollars not going away. I think that will be the trend of the transactional currency for ephemeral transaction, and a coin. Represent, the single best savings technology. We've ever had. I look at it kind of the opposite of most people. I don't think Bitcoin is volatile. I think it's in discovery mode of people, realizing if it's at the dollar, is basically going to zero, you know, in a logarithmic curve

and and that makes its perceived value versus the dollar up volatile. But in and of itself, it's simply the best savings technology we've ever had. And, you know, I think that you'll probably end up with a model at first where it's the dollar begin Euro R&B competing all the other currencies, go to zero. That means that the world Powers become highly concentrated. Unless, unless we have a savings technology that somehow Medicaid, that that power base because of the company. Other countries won't be able

to compete because they won't be able to print buddy. So I think that's what's going to happen, you know, to the stats, you read. And I've been tweeting about this ice. I almost daily now. I'm sorry, but how do I say this nicely that the inflation numbers? The money printing numbers, physically be inflation numbers. Pure unadulterated vs. I mean they simply made up the defend. The White House Congress is not an excuse for the malfeasance and that's going on a real inflation. CPI

versus dollar printing terms is is in the US. It depends upon where you are and socioeconomic Spectrum the wealthy. You are the higher the inflation rate. It's probably Blended on the order of 13% to 14% right now. And you know, anybody here, who buys anything or just push it, and how it came out today, and in a suite, at this 6 months ago, when they started using this word transitory. Understanding of the fact that this is not. And, and so today, they drop the word transitory why? Because

our perpetual and sustainable. Everybody else knew this but you were go, right? The honest truth. But they are highly incentivized to not admit it because of the implications of that on the broader economy. That's the problem. There's also there's a place called The Misery index. Anyone here has heard about it. It's unemployment rate plus the inflation rate. It's never the. Last time it was this high is 1970. The Great Depression. It was a word which was what is, what is that a typo? When you wrote stagflation, what

is stagflation? And I said, look, it's rearing its head again. I don't remember it. I was I wasn't I wasn't old enough to know exactly what it meant. But I vaguely remember my my parents waiting on lines for gasoline when the oil embargo happen. And so we ended up for different reasons with the same stagflation model that we're heading towards now. And, you know, it's only being offset by tech companies that are basically improving the productivity rate. If God bless the tech companies that are basically saving ever What else right now? Right and so that is what the problem with that

is is creating a mismatch between the Haves and Have Nots, right? It's in. So it's, it's masking the, the underlying structural problems that we have that the FED is actually making worse loans. Her other thing. That's worth noting is it's not just the FED of the US every single modern, you know, first world country. That's just printing money, non-stop Japan. Just announced. I think it was 40% of their GDP. And, you know it, they're smaller comparison, but everyone's doing the same thing in Europe a

couple years ago, you know, the famous quote, by any means necessary there, just printing money to prop up the economy and that eventually we'll come back by in a symptom. And so, you know, tip to Bill's Point Bitcoin and Is the single most important technological innovation that of our time. And it's it's a financial instrument for people to combat exam. There's not a coincidence that Bitcoin came out in 2008 after the financial crisis, after the beginning of all this, this is the beginning of the end right now.

Controversial, definitely a big one bullet through a whole lot of Bitcoin. I don't agree with government printing, tons of money. Inflation is good for the economy with velocity and the more he doesn't get bored at the top-right 21 million. There's only Twenty-One million Bitcoin. What happens if all of us that has them stop. Ordering them. Ten generations for now, write my kids, my kids. It will have to be quiet, but new people want to pick one. I think a new algorithm, which would be easy to do is just 2% inflation. Milton Friedman said, there's like a week and we can see

what's best for the economy, but Play the bad things. You play some area21 million. No more will be printed. You don't want, you know, 14, 15% inflation. What's some some degree of inflation is good. Let's not forget 1929 happen. Great Depression. A lot of people started boarding. So couple things one. I actually wrote about this in the 70s before Bitcoin. He actually explain what would happen if you introduce private money and it's unbelievable. I mean, he wrote a play book that we have been playing. I mean almost to the letter r i t described. Exactly what would happen

is happening. Now that the the deflationary aspect would be hoarded which is what you're implying, your comment gets to a certain level. We have no choice but to spend it because you need to live, right? And it'll get to a certain level and that's what will happen. I don't know what to say about the other stuff. Then what would happen to the twenties in terms of monetary inflation was simply a response to the bad policies that led up to that the first place. So what you talkin about is having the ability to fix all of the bad policies with potentially good policies, but

if you didn't put the government in a position to have those bad policies in the first place, you wouldn't need the information you're talking about. So if you had a sound monetary system, where no one was allowed to have their finger on the print button and everyone knew it in advance, all the BS that was happening would be happening by definition. Right? So I don't think that giving government's a fixed rate of inflation. Is the answer. I think the answer is and by the way, whether its 1% inflation or truly, deflation Arie, it doesn't really matter. The answer is going to work the

same way and that is, everybody knows that you have a savings technology that allows you to store for. Tivity, but if it's a fixed money supply, you have to spend it because we all have to live, right? And so that's what that's what people Miss in, any existing system. The reality is, is that money loses 90% of its value every hundred years. The only reason there's not riots in the street is cuz we're all dead. But if people start living to be a hundred and twenty-five hundred fifty, look out, they're not going to accept the fact that their savings technology, right. Which is based upon dead

trees is going to zero in front of their eyes. Thanks Bill and unfortunately coming up on time here so I can we just take a minute or two and just what are you looking forward to in the ecosystem of the next, you know, you're so and how can people connect with you and your project? I'm looking forward to see you fly in defy actually coming together and making it way more accessible, really good. What you guys are doing making the product behind the scene, or if that's really a good user experience for individuals to come in on, you can find me on Twitter. Our company name is pancit

Network. Yeah, I mean, I'm really excited about the regulatory Clarity, that should be coming in the next 12 to 18 months. I'm hopeful about that. You know, I remember in 2017, people were always like, the institutions are, institutions are coming, and they never really came. So I am hopeful that the real institutional money is going to start flowing into a crypto on big coin and that will give the ecosystem lot more legitimacy. And, you know, I think there's tons

of opportunities for individuals like that the, the opportunity to learn and get trained. And so, you know, I'm excited about that as well. I think I'm excited about really said about two things right now. We've got a lot of customers European customers in the last few months. We've seen massive influx from India, Pakistan Bangladesh, Philippines Central, America part of South America that is incredibly exciting to me and obviously, it's in smaller amounts compared to a lot of

food are wealthy customers in the US, but I loved it. And the second thing is I think we're working on this and others as well. You're going to see a lot of now, payment product that take advantage of crypto in the background. And so that's something that I'm spending a lot of time on is how do we actually take the a burn product? And let you borrow against what you're holding and use it in real time at the point-of-sale just like you're borrowing effectively against your bank account bank account when you have a credit card, and so that's the kind of stuff that I am working at

now, cuz I think that ultimately, as people get their next Generation kind of credit in a lot of countries. There is no credit infrastructure. So needs to be based upon the value of what you're holding and the value of that crypto is actually going to be the basis for credit in the future. And that's something. I'm spending. A lot of time on right now. Also will take you three so much for your time and and sharing your insights with their given up for yourselves here. Thank you.

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