Minding the Gap

Welcome back to dealbook. Mellody Hobson is here. She was one of the most senior black women, and financers the president, and co-ceo Aero Investments. The first black-owned money management from the United States, which oversees 17.3 billion dollars in assets. She's also the chair Starbucks and she's been with us before and we're thrilled to have her back. And now we have Meghan, The Duchess of Sussex. She is also here with us in person today and did she is the co-founder of Arts? Well, an organization, she started with her husband Harry Prince Harry that includes their

foundation and production stood at, which is now he feels on Spotify and Netflix. And we want to talk to them about how women can reject namik and professional part of the role of women in business and society and what has to happen next. I want to thank both of you for joining us know that you have been doing this, which is to say that you have been working the telephones from what I understand about the issue of Paid Family Leave. Part of the temperature package talking to Santa to the Congress people in all

sorts of all sorts of things. And the reason I bring it up is because you have made this issue and women a central one for you. And I'm sure that the audience for saving themselves. You know what, I don't understand. She has this great privilege. How is this, and why is this topic? So I thought we start there. Sure, let's start there. And then I think you mentioned privilege. My husband is always said with great privilege, comes great responsibility. But even before I had any sort of privilege of my life, when my life and my lifestyle were very, very

different. I always just stood up for what was right. And so, I've been gone from the US for a really long time. I lived in Canada for seven years for work and moved to the UK and a comeback. And now be a mother of two. And to see that, the u.s. Is one of only six countries in the entire world that doesn't offer any form of national paid leave. Just in So I guess my Approach was the same as it's been since I was really young when I was 11 and I saw something that was wrong on TV. I put pen to paper and wrote a letter about it. So on this, I said, well, let me write a letter and let me pick up

the phone and make some calls and see if I can help. It's just to me. It seems like a really logical and obvious thing to do and I'm happy that I'm able to support it. What happens when they pick up the phone and you say it's Megan that you say, it's Megan. You just happen to have a conversation, just people, pretty surprised. I think it is not red or blue. We can all agree that people need support certainly when they just had a child and we have a 5 month old baby. So it's a really sensitive

one for us. We have the luxury of being able to have had that time. Not just for Mom's, right? Father is as well to be with our newborn and I think of this entire country, if you know, if we valued American families in that way, as we should, it sets us up for economic growth and success. But it also just really allows people to have that their sacred time as a family. Do you have any anxiety about getting involved in politics? I don't see this as a political issue correctly. Look, they're certainly a precedent amongst my husband's family, in the royal family of not having

any involvement in politics. But I think this is a paid leave from my standpoint is just a humanitarian issue. Nobody. I want to talk to you about something that you wrote earlier this year. And you said, why is it so hard for people to talk about money and you talk about when you were a child? You should have child. I was desperate to understand money, not to make it but to master it. Yes, I absolutely wrote that because I felt that this is one of these issues that is this idea financial literacy and our unwillingness to speak about money is causing us to

actually whiten the gaps that exist in our society. It fascinates me that you can hear people over here people in an elevator talking about what vaccine they got, but even the closest of friends won't fit together and speak about money issues. And I think that that's at the end of the day has dramatic repercussion for our society, particularly women and minorities in our society study that said, 61% of women would rather talk about the details of Their Own Death. Then talk about money and you look at that and go how we culturally allowed

that to be the case. There's nothing wrong with talking about a woman's success or her ambition, or her financial prowess, and we all know that if you're able to be financially independent, it changes how you move in the world. That changes your entire way of being. You use the word ambition just now and used to demonize women. Often times when when the rendition women are put together and you've been on the other end of that, both of you have girls and women to think that if you are ambitious,

there's something negative about that worth of a boy's described that way of a man, certainly is described as ambitious. That's an incredibly positive thing culturally, but I don't know how we ended up changing that, but I think you get a Melody. Would you agree? It's just a really rumbling thing being serious. Why is that wrong? Why is pursuing pursuing achievement? Whatever? It might be something that is negative. And why is it more negative for women than men? I think that's

something that again. That's so many barriers that we have to overcome. But that that is one where more, symbols, symbols in society are very, very important. Ultimately. We have to break down that barrier that negative barrier that exists. When it comes to ambition. I always joke with people. I meet people all the time and they told me, I guess you can't be nice, you know, you're going to be Cutthroat. And again that tells you a lot of pursuit of achievement. You're like a big

boss. Now, do you think that you have to be different as a woman as a boss? What time do? I do know, it's probably have to answer that would surprise some people that I would say, I think that I have found myself having at times to modulate myself in order to, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Sometimes I can be too big and I'm being too big. Someone can't hear me, but to figure out a way to connect with them so that they can hear me, not be intimidated. Be non-threatening and not threatened at the same time and finding that edge can be very, very

hard, but it can mean thinking through how you show up and how people received you. How do you deal with that often times? You walked in here? And it's like you're bigger than life. Just walking in. Is that how you felt just now? I don't see myself as the same that I've always been, right? Of always been a hard worker. I have always. You know, the people that know me well and some of them are here today. I've just always been the same and so I think Melodies point is a really strong one in that. The perception might be different. But if you were

really grounded until you are you know, when you're at 6 in your values and I don't know, I show up in the same way that I always have. How much do you think this whole issue of perception is a function of or being impacted and influence by the media and the social, the world of social media? Facebook came out recently. Came out with a formation leaked about the impact that social media has on young women. And what is that? You think impact us with a larger issue? Aviv the

entire environment of social media, social media, but at the moment, you see in many ways, the social media feeding into that, it becomes a race to the bottom because it's clickbait culture has made it. So that something is salacious is more interesting and gets more pick up and can be monetized. So that ends up being the thing that feeds the entire environment of the media. And I think the challenging piece there than in many ways because it is so quick and and wrap it and how it's being delivered. It's about creating the news

rather than reporting the news. But the damaging effects of that is specifically for women, especially for young girls is impossible to even qualify. Nobody can be harnessed forgot, it could be harnessed and the other way, I've been watching the Muhammad Ali documentary by Ken Burns. Example of a controversial the time and just being a bit of their impact on the society and understand the greatness. That was there. No pun intended. He was the greatest. How can we very, very carefully? Sure. Ate some of those messages, especially

for young people in a way that will lead them again, to be in this ambitious, and Inspire for that same. Kind of greatness on those platforms to have some way where you are incentivised to promote things as you're saying, Melody, that are positive and good and true, right? But right now, if you're getting paid for the most clicks and you're getting more clicks, when people are hate clicking on things, then without question you are, perpetuating the cycle, especially in the entire period of lockdown. Right before that, it had. I don't know 5 hours a week that

they could invest in just scrolling online during lockdown in the absence of being out of the house or being at work. Maybe you're spending 50 hours online, you becoming indoctrinated, you're becoming condition to be cruel. And there has to be a responsibility that land somewhere in that must be with the platforms with them. You know, that's a much larger conversation. But it is, it's, it's really way to harness social media in some way to actually help with these issues were talking about. Now in terms of this issue, a parody and some of the issues that you've been talking about whether

be paid family, leave anything else. You know, I think that their ways to make strong changes on social media platforms and with the media in general, but people have to be brave enough to do it in terms of parity. I think, you know right now the demonization that you're talking about for women if they're being called ambitious, one of the things that seems like such an easy salsa from my land. We talked to some friends about this as well. You look at Instagram, for example, there's a like button or there's comments. So you have to if you disagree with it comment and really good for y'all

look way as opposed to if there was just a dislike button wouldn't that hugely shit? What you were putting out there? Cuz you just like, just like it no more like it or you have to say something negative. And it's just adding to this really unfortunate cycle. That is that I think is having a ripple effect on women across the board. Melody, I want to pick up the conversation to Corporate America right now because one of the things that's fascinating is we're starting to see the rise of employee active, isn't any many ways after the rise and pay parity and other programs at Big

Business. And the question is, whether this is a step change forever. Or this is a function of something else that may not last in an environment where the economy in the stock market is doing so well, and investors are saying go for it now, but what happens when things maybe aren't as good. I think we've had plenty of examples and labor relations in US, history of September's that actually became last thing. You looked back to things like child labor or you can look at things and conditions in factories. Pay Equity is one of those issues where we are staying. Stop

change has basic one companies really committing themselves to measure. I always like to say, Matt is no opinion. If you have the math and I'll tell you where you are. I think some of the things that are happening right now, we're directly flat direct reaction to the long economic expansion that we have been in in the society, as well as the type. They were forced that we have, we seen this movie before we saw that in the decades that followed were World War II in terms of way. So, I think there's a language that is a Common Language.

And I actually think because of the viral nature of our society. Corporation to corporate leaders are being held accountable in a very different way than, in times past. Class, would you represent long-term is going to say this is the way and we're willing to invest in this and possibly, by the way, make less profit in the short-term is the function of it and people dead when they said that the role of a corporation is more than just making profit to look after all of the relevant. Stakeholders. Certainly, that is the investor that is also the person that works inside of that company, as

well as the broader community. That was a bold moment when Corporate America United in that point of view, because it is actually true. If you want to be a successful, world-class 21st century company in this country. You have to remind all of those constituents and make sure that you're creating an environment that people wear people want to come and work for customers want to come and use your services or buy your product and to the extent that it doesn't exist over time. He will become less relevant, but I think at least our classroom and Ariel and That's perspective. We think these things

matter, these social ills of our society. The social issues of our society are at the feet of corporate America in a different way than they ever were before. And if you don't believe me, think about things like 10 years ago. Five years ago. We didn't have live shooter drills, or mental health, benefit of corporate America. Realizes they have responsibilities and extend Way Beyond just your profit but it's also responsibility that benefits them right? If you don't have to do it for a tokenistic way. It will. I think there was something that said if there was parity with in the workspace,

it would add 12 trillion dollars, the global economy and you look at just a cultural stigma and justice system is that need changing, you know, it wasn't until the 70s in the US, it women to access an independent line of credit. That was When my mom was growing up, right, the 7 years is just a minute ago. And you look at that and think of how much progress we still need to make. If women are making something like $0.84 on the dollar and black, women are making 63 cents on the dollar. If we are able to keep pushing forward and then comes and starts young, right? If I was ingrained at a

young age. Understand more about the stock market financial literacy, how different that would put me in the world because even though I grow clipping coupons, and now that's ingrained in me as well. My values haven't changed any more. I don't know, but I will never buy anything online without signing online promo code first. So, that's still in there. Right? It's a modern version of the same thing, but that's to say that was ingrained in me, when I was young. Imagine what the world would be like if you refrained other elements of financial

understanding especially in young women. So they can move in the world in a different way to work. Curious what what that's like and where you see that came from for you. I don't know exactly where it came from both my parents of a very strong work ethic. And so, I remember when I was at, I was really on that must have been eight or nine. I started making scrunchies to spell, I need my downtown to get them up and make them and sell them for 5 bucks. Who knows. But I remember the feeling of knowing that I had done something, I had invested in myself and I had done

this labor and been compensated for it. And there was a sense of Pride that comes from that. Whether it's that, whether it's Nino, your first job, waiting tables or host of things, both things that I've done, you know, and that couple hundred dollars that gives you a sense of not just purpose, but it's in the self-satisfaction. I think that for women, especially women, who are at home raising kids. They're working. It's just unpaid labor. And then you'd be recognized for their unpaid labor. With men in all of this conversation,

among men of around this Modern, Men frankly to really understand and they benefit from it as well paid parental, leave is really important. It's not just about the mom being home, what it doesn't connect you, how it connects you with a family unit is really key. But equally incentivizes you to be able to go back to work. If you are, if you know that you can have that quality time and you're not sacrificing your job or that you have to choose between your family and putting food on the table. The ripple effect about his huge but men have to be a part of

that. The truth. I remember looking at really shocked me about work from home or work flexibility schedules pre-pandemic. 3/4 of the people who work from home or actually met and I think most people don't realize that now if they were a large part of the workforce in general, that actually does make quite a bit of sense, but I think are our natural inclination, is that pre-pandemic, the person who needed the flexible work, schedule was the woman while she

met. But the person, the people who are actually using them to their benefit and that is not something that has hurt their career. In fact more than half of men who had flexible work schedule that they thought it help their career. So if we know the fact we can actually just all messed up and then Opportunity is actually for everyone. It's not targeted at one gender, one room. I think everybody is. I think it's, it's starting. Hopefully, I think that that Zoom culture

is going to persist and we think it is a leveler or do. We think it is the opposite that that the proximity to power is still matters? The first of all, I'm in my office right now in San Francisco. So I've been here and in terms of a leveler or a problem. I actually think it could be both and therefore, we must be intentional. I told this to my team and I said this too many people that I talked to the one great thing about Zoom, you can invite more people into the conversation particularly young people. You don't have to have a plane ticket for them to go and visit their

clients. They can sit, and listen, and learn in a way that perhaps they never had that access of quote being in the room where it happens before at the same time. If you're not intentional about how you show up in your making your presence known, you can actually lose out in a dramatic way. I told people you want to make sure you kill your career goes, people in meetings. You know what, your dad did the day, people forget you even work at the company, that is a Surefire way to lose your standing or any opportunity for long-term success. So I think there are there if it's a it's a two-part

answer. Depending on how you leverage it or how management leverages that they can be tremendous. I do not think it will go away. I think this hybrid world that we live in is likely to continue. Yeah, they look we build our entire organization during covid. Sweden have been able to do it in the absence of Zoom or you no other ways of just connecting because it's a global business, right? We have team members were in the UK. We have two numbers in other countries as well. But I do think it's really nice to be in person, right? And to be able to interact in that way. So I hope that the

hybrid continue to work with the people also recognize that. Even if you can do it remotely, that there is nothing that beats just real connection face-to-face. We wish you were here, Melody tracks. We all prefer a live concert to a CD. I wanted to ask you both about being not just women for women of color and what you think is happening in this country right now. And then also what has to happen. That's different than just dealing with this issue. Singularly from a gender perspective,

even though there's been a lot more attention perhaps in the past year to what women and women of color have been experiencing for a very long time. I witness it through the lens of my mom and now as an adult myself is still staggering, but I think we're making strides in the right direction and a lot of that comes down to as we said, mending part of the conversation, but also women being able to support each other, you know, the reason I didn't know each other as we have mutual friends. You think you have to know

Melody because she can be such a great mentor and I think men touring in that regard what so valuable isn't just cheerleading each other through the process of whatever discriminations we may face or whatever last dealings that are there. But really being the person to say Let me make this phone call for you. Actually, this is what you should be thinking about. When you sign that contract, this is when you should walk away from the table. This is when you should push him a little bit more, someone who has seasoned experienced was able to guide you in a really strong way. That is part of how

we're going to move the needle. I don't know if you agree, but, you know, that's been really valuable for me. Just annoying Melody. I will revive been thrilled to know you and we we built a great relationship and it's been fun to get to know you. I would say that when you think about this issue. This is the way I thought about, it's going to be controversial, what I say, but I do believe the number one beneficiary of diversity initiatives in this country, have been white women. I think the problem is that there's this scenario that is created that it's a zero-sum game and it is not the

diversity initiatives in this country have a gender bias. Unfortunately that gender bias does it also necessarily include black women? I don't see that as a victim an observation and I can give you chapter and verse and data about how that shows up in all sorts of sorts of Statistics that companies publish as well as diversity programs, and things like that. I think for us to actually have incited that really work. We would be much more comprehensive and how we think about that measure across all categories. So often we talk about

Multicultural umbrella, we put everyone together women minorities, all the under-representation. I'll give you one simple example. We just passed a one-point, truly young 2 trillion dollar infrastructure bill in this country. The u.s. Government has a mandate that would court with government spend 5%. Let's go to women and minorities. So here's the thing, women represent 50% of the population of black people 14.2% 5% goes to women and minorities. These are the kind of economic imbalances that

exist that have to actually be addressed and they need to be addressed in a more granular, way. This idea that you don't believe necessarily quotas, but you're believing targets. What do you mean by that? Play profitability targets. There's a range. We know that if we give guidance in Corporate America, we don't get it. Usually to the penny. We say, will make me clean this and that, that is just normal. And we are incensed against those targets. Seals, you get what you and sent you and

sent them to grow earnings for the company or to hit that product launch or sales people get incentive based upon the business and revenues that they drive. We need those same kind of targets around, diversity. People are talking a lot about diversity, but you can't hit a goal and let you set one. I think those goals should be related to do a demographics of our society. That's the best way to level set and have a plan. Otherwise. I think we're shooting in the dark and then ultimately, I think those goals should be in order to drive the behavior that we'd like to see. So many companies tell

us diversity is quote, a strategic imperative that every other strategic imperative, again, has these targets and has these inside How are you doing? You're building your building in the process of building a company. And is that part of the conversation? And how do you think about targets or goals or a small company? But we have the policies that we would like, right if I was employed, our company. We have 20 weeks of paid leave. Because if it's not being provided by the government, at this point, hopefully, that'll change. You want to be a

company that provides that for your employees. But in terms of, you know, having a really a multicultural staff as multi-cultural because we want a diversity, not just a people, but it was seven points of view. It adds to the richness of the company and what were able to deliver be on the production side or in our foundation. Sign. Anything that we do? You think a boss. Yes. I read great things about you as a boss. And if you read the tabloids, you can read all sorts of crazy things about being a boss. You feel like you have

to do it differently and Juice specifically given your role. You feel like you have to do it every way to read tabloids. Hopefully, one day that they come with a warning label like cigarettes. Do you like this is toxic for your mental health? I think that's a way that I have now moved as my husband and I have started to build this together on our own. We're just doing it the same way that that we would want, if we were employed, stop it, right? So, just treat people the way you want to be treated. That is always how I've moved. I used

to work on it. A TV series for 7 years. I was a crew of over 200 people write. So the way that you are, when you're with a huge environment is no different than you are when you're with a small company, but it's been, it's been really interesting. It's great to be in New York and be able to be with so many of our team in person. No, I had serious cuz it was asking the question one question, because in the news today, there is the Daily Mail is, you know, when the UK is appealing, the ruling that wasn't your favor about this

letter. And if they had published that you would sent to your to, your father. And I just want to ask you, you know, about the appeal and and how you feel about it. And also to tell you feel about these issues of privacy you now with the United States, the rules United States probably know better. If in fact, in some ways relatives to some of these issues, Cowboy you do in terms of this, the appeal. I won the case. And this issue, Franklin has been going on. When I had no children at all Melody and I have two children, as you know, so it An arduous process. But

again, it's just me standing up for what's right, which I think is important across the board across the board be at in this case or any other things. You've been talking about today at a certain point no matter how difficult it is, you know, the difference between right and wrong. You must stand up for what's right, and that's what I'm doing. Okay, before we left before, we will everybody go Melody. Here's the question, you've been to deal with now before this is now your second time with us. If we do this together, all of us in ten years from now, decade from now on 30th Anniversary

this conversation. What do you think? I was very very long time and we have to acknowledge that we need a major major Milestones behead for this conversation to go away. And I just don't see how they all occur at the current rate. But that should have described great, but that shouldn't discourage us from trying to make those changes, right? So in ten years time, it might be a different version of the same conversation, but hopefully a different version in the right direction, and it's so important for them right now to really grasp

the place that they have and the place that they should put themselves at at the right. Tables in the market to not be afraid to know your worth and to not be able to know your financial worth. So hopefully people start making those active steps on a day-to-day than ten years time. Conversation will still be had, but hopefully a lot better Rosa Parks, just decided not to stand up and that changed a lot. And that everyone has power. People think that this is from on high. And actually, this is a team sport. The needle that we're trying to move. I hope

we're all on a journey. I hope we do have this conversation in 10 years, but it's a different one. If not before. Then. I want to thank both of you buddy. Thank you and Megan. Thank you. I have to be back in just a little bit.