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Building the right culture for DAOs - Punia and Tracheopteryx
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About the talk

Punia from Index Coop and Tracheopteryx, a co-creator of Coordinape and hailing from the Yearn Ecosystem. Together they go into the method to the topic that is culture building for DAOs.

About speaker

Abhishek Punia
DAO and Product at Set Labs
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Hey guys are going to be here and I'm honored to take the track, which is the most fascinating mines in the Dallas Bass. The topic of this conversation is about culture and how culture is formed. And how do you get the right culture, which is a really interesting question that really expensive urologist Dow's but for the purpose of this conversation, where to take that question, everyone afraid of it within a few other questions to really make it like Dallas, Pacifica and explore within that context, to start off with their own, kind of talk about why Dallas, which is

better dreamer. We'll talk about like what values that sort of stuff. And then finally, what kind of clothes off with how does a m y Dallas? Is there something tactical in that or is there like an underlying philosophy? We can access? I mean, it's amazing to see all these people here. All for that. Exact question. Right? Why that was I think there's something that kind of speaks to me and maybe all of it. All right. What up? I don't Google me, something

new. What is it? Is it just like an LLC on the blockchain? Not really, right? Like it's not fundamentally different. Then forms of coordination of come before. There's and Nations and religions, and tribes, and corporations, and corporations have been the best. Like, in the highest technology we have for telling fictions that find people's actions together into some usable product. But there's supper tremendous limitations from top down control systems that are really low bandwidth decision-making, constructs to our legal

bullshit. That is different one place to another all these hoops. You have to jump through the promise of the Dow is that it's going to wipe a lot of that clean. You never allow a new start, you know, a place where there's open and equal access where you don't have to worry. Where you came from or who you are, or what your skills? Are, you can jump in. You can start creating value. If you start getting it back to getting rewarded and there's so much to figure out, but I think that's really why we're all here. Right? It's this. It is coordination all the way down. That's everything, right? And

if we can figure out better ways to work together, better ways to trust each other, then that solves everything for us. It's faster. If you talk like that has a bit of a blank slates Explorer coordination out of curiosity. What exactly like how would you think about Dallas in like the Arc of history? And why do you think it's important to start Fitness? Plain State perspective? Yeah, so it it does follow this, this story for me. And it really that story's Locust is in the collective. So the space in between minds and that space is always been there by the space of stories of space in

the imagination of the collective, fantasies. Like we're in a team together, right? We consensually decide that and that's a story as long as the human species. And so, that's where he keeps getting told new ways and were able to create artifacts in that space, write books and movies and memes with these artifacts have always had pretty, not very robust infrastructure to hold them. Right? Libraries get burned memes, change with the blockchain is allowed for us to do is create this within the collective

concept real and that concept is scarcity. Then you can create a value. Ali about value for some object or if it's art. You know, you can, you can trade it, but it stays there forever, and that. Solidity enables a whole new space of of growth within this collected within the center. Subjective space. Fastening exploring, certain implications of that. You guys did something really interesting recently. You guys, we started off by publishing a book which was kind of

times during this is like this medicine the way that we were talking about a bit here. Why did you guys do that? Why was that like something you guys feel like it's invest into what we like to hear what you have to get out of it fun and rewarding process for me. And for a lot of us. It's a book called the blue pill that we are number of people roll with in urine and it's about who we feel. We are not familiar with the story of your in it. It started in chaos, you know, like Andre Grande created this incredible software platform and he didn't want her governance week. The Wi-Fi wifey

token, and released into the world. And I think of this is a kind of big bang. It was this explosive moment, which created this entire new little universe. And it started from one little thing that 9 days of life. Mission. And then just community formed and there is no leader. There is no decision making system. People like me were just called in at that time because this was cool and we're amazed that somebody had this integrity. And these principles to give something fully away. He could have made billions on it, but he gave it away because he don't want to do it. And you want

other people to, and that meant a lot to me into a lot of people. And we had to figure out from Whole cloth, how to create our community. And it's always in my mind, had two pieces, right? There's the yield function. There is the software tools that you can put cryptoassets into an urn return, honor nay pyi, but then there's the community part. There's the governance, there's the organization. That's how we come together in from the beginning for urine in particular that was essential because my urine runs on strategies. It runs on people or you'll puncture runs on people

surveying, the space seeing opportunities committing them to code and then offering them for others to use in order to You that you need a system that can bring these people in it reward them, make them feel trusted and safe. So it needed that governance from the beginning. There's nothing that could quite do that with the build it all ourselves, right? And in writing the loop, if we wanted to create like what's the vision for your, you know, what are we doing? What's a road map? People always ask us, it's like, well, there's nobody at the tops running. This, you know, there's no c-suite that's

going to like, hire a marketing firm in crate this document for you so hot, but there was a need for it. So, how we doing? So, we just stayed with in internally, like I start asking a lot of questions, interviewing people other people start talking to people, people people had ideas which are took months to know. It's always so fucking slow and you do it this way. We put all these ideas about who we believe we are into this document and we wrote it to share with the world so that people can maybe help on our mission and understand us better. So previously you talked about at the blush and is

kind of this space and outer the Space Preserve such artifacts. So when you guys were exploring the blue pill, how does an artifact like that? If it's correct a cat or guys, that is one kind of connector. Does preservation and propagation of such artifacts had to learn in the fire, you know, how to be a cow because we had a lot of money at stake. Right from the beginning. We had users that were using our products and we didn't have a traditional centralized structure, the fall back on and we also restrain ourselves from creating that centralized

structure. One of the things you find in these formulas in Kuwait spaces that were all trading in its ambiguity. Is it to fall back on things at work? You know, it's like yours. Are we had? Okay. Ours and we had this system of whatever it is. Like let's do all that. Like no, don't do that to do something better and Jennifer. The question was how the artifacts like a preserve is, you know in telling the story and creating these new systems of working together and sharing them with others, making them open stores and building is a

community together. Awesome. And then to tie and a bit more. Would like the lady asked for this talk. What is how culture is formed? That seems like one of those documents are really Keystone in creating a culture. First, I'd be curious. If you agree with the sentiment that even in Dows culture comes from vision and secondly epicurus is a for organization that your nose born from the fire. How do you get buying such a vision? Slowly, you know, and and thoughtfully and carefully like normally in organizations where does culture come from generally, most easily from the leaders

at the top or at the center of the network that are leading by doing and they are creating the culture of the other people resonate with, and it calls them in. And then they start going in that direction. A lot of the time, you don't even need to elucidate what that vision is because you have an object, you have a person that is representing at manifesting and for everyone, but in a group like urine, which is leaderless from the start, or I like severe full of because we're really trying to make a system where everybody is a leader and everybody can act autonomously. You don't have that

example. So it's a little bit harder. I mean, you do have them. I paid like a hundred other people, their leaders in the community, but there is no one person that is stamping this out forever and else to use. And so then like, I could say, what? He was my vision and I have done that and other people can say that. But how do you actually synthesize one for the whole Community? It's in dialogue. You know, through relationships. Mr. Doing process, like the blue pill writing that sharing that getting feedback iterating. It's a live, which is actually much better. A lot of people are

scared of the bulshit values that Boomer companies make, you know, we put them up on our wall. But really, we know it's just that the black, the bottom line that matters, but for to me is like ours, the principal's really do matter because it's it's because we don't have a bottom line of dollar. Like we have to what does keep us together. Why are we all doing this? And that can beat a sit and not spoken but it's actually can be very nice when you do speak it. What do you think? So alike in this kind of Arc of history and often times? We idolize her in the tickets for having these

Visions like Napoleon or jobs or what-have-you? Why you think it's important that or what you think it might be a benefit that vision is income from the single to charismatic kind of person. Well, it's interesting topics open Foucault wrote about this and he called the author function and said like, you know, if you rap, you know, how to grow a new book and be like, oh no, but I must be great cuz it's cuz he use the name of the author is a shortcut to to valuing something cuz it comes from somebody. That is, that is valued and sewing communities. You can use the shortcut. You're like,

oh, like the media means part of this, got to be really cool, you know, or somebody else, right? But when you don't have that then you, you know, it's harder and you have to like, look at the actual stuff that's happening and decide for yourself. Is this actually good or not and that takes more time. Are there certain processes that you found success for a urine test actually Coke? Univision, you know, as soon as my find that like kind of a continual flow of people's opinions, maybe get hard that kind of form and rely on a certain that unlike unlike one thing. What would I get you to put

it on? So I can of coke with a vision and get alignment for the vision itself was a process of just dialogue, right? I've I've I've saying intentionally, hey, we want to have a vision. You know, what you guys think? And people hearing people's feedback and often, you know, usually here and everyone's working so hard on on software and the Vault. That is not a lot of extra time for like creating a vision. So something often crickets and I'm the one saying like, hey guys. Hey guys, let's write something and get some feedback and it's

just an iterative dialogue, you know, but we don't have like a hardcore process for that. But we have found I think your question points to another important piece of dog was, which is how Processes are right and we talked about like the three p's. Do you know that the purpose of principles in the process or there are essential for a dow to to grow and needs to be Define in different ways, but the process has like a urine. We are experimenting with the advice process, which is something that comes from he'll organizations, which is the everybody can make any decision they want, as long as

they ask, for advice, you ask for device to hear the advice than you make, whatever decision you want. And then have a conflict resolution process that if you don't like some decisions on what made you can start this process with them, which is a different process to resolve that conflict and you can change. Every decision is are two of you can always change a decision because the bias we really want to have this by on some action, you know, we don't want to spend all of our time debating shit into the ground. Like I like the people we work with I trust, they know what they're doing. They can

make decisions on their own as long as there are processes to support conflict in an edge cases that come up in those processor pretty critical news. The ones that are kind of less famous real familiar with Voting process has a lot of other types of decision-making process in any organism. I was Furious that many organizations to make it function organizations and how they connect with the idea of a Del Sol. So this is a concept created by Frederick Lulu in this book, Reinventing

organizations. And he spent years researching companies around the world that were leaving and really new ways of next wave of corporate governance. And what he found some similarities were things like self-management. These companies were ever be set there on salary and nobody had a boss and they would decide what they didn't either. Traditional vows. This is over the past 30 years, like Morningstar tomato. Paste company in California. What does between 800 and 2,500 employees processing tomato? Paste all setting their own salaries without a boss. And he's been working extremely. Well,

not just theoretically, like companies all of the world doing this type of work and so it's incredibly apropos for Dallas because you can think there's at least two pieces to douse, right? There's like the hardware in the software. The hardware of the Dow is the kind of consensus making systems or coin voting or whatever else you have within the software is, like, how are you, organizing? How are you operating? Like, what are you rude? Sing the practice are you can you can operate a dowel like a mafia like a crime group? If you want, you know by fear and intimidation you can

operate it like a non-profit where every voice is heard and you know it and it's all about talking where you can operate it, you know, like like a deal organization know where it's all autonomous and people can make every decision. And you can also use those different kind of world use in an LLC or in a crime group, you know, like they're too independent axes. Is at orientation, the underlying philosophy behind urine and if so, like, how'd you guys going to arrive on it? It's I think we've been identifying what's happening at urine and seeing that it has a lot of teal aspects and

then we've been using, you know what this research and is thinking as a way to improve, how we work together. So from Vision, which you know, you're going to pay me really? Well. We imagine from Vision, comes out culture organizational, structure values until one exists in centralized web, two companies that don't have like a diamond tality, but you think there's a certain aspects of each of those points. I can coach her organizational structure that are better fit for like the philosophy of McDowell and are better adapted 222 Fifth at model than others

votes. And you have a multi say again. You have a, you have a board. Like, it's the same thing. It's like, well architectural e, the structures of human coordination. Have been similar in evolving for four decades, you know, people work in small groups and in large groups in like those different features are not unique to anyone format of operations. That doesn't that's not the interesting piece, right? Missing pieces is a lot of the things like what

Kevin was just talking about like that their permission that's in there open in the deer cross jurisdiction and that they're equal access an equal opportunity and all these things and it's all you do immutable and stored on a ledger invisible for everybody. That's what really changes everything and And you're saying of4 culture. So in the same way, they might look at that was the same thing is like abort abort or whatever. You say. Oh, look at all these like, Google has it fucking culture in like they're garbage. And and you know, that's like why you going to bring that Boomer stuff to

Dows man, we have culture has to. Like we can find our own way to do culture in a way that is native to our community and to our beliefs and our values. And that's important. Also, I think there's a bit of an idea that in a doubt that you see this happening a lot if that you shouldn't do any of that. It's just like, okay, just throw it to the Dow just like lunch, the discourse lunch, the Snapchat, now you guys are in charge, go, you know, and it doesn't work. So great, really do some work to create to help

it, you know in self Sovereign native crypto ways to create the leadership structures that allow for natural fluid leadership. Not hierarchical. Rigid natural hierarchy. Great, but rigid ones were like, I'm always. The boss is never good at that and that's an ongoing process that urine and coordinating a lot of other groups on you. Kind of have already explored this question a little bit. But it like, what do we see? A lot of cultural statements focus on the product like Facebook's like, you do move fast and pray things. Amazon. What's the most customer-centric company in the world?

Do you view these statements as taking on a new flavor and perhaps a new Direction? When you going to come to Dallas or or two organizations are, or they like Yeah, I mean, in mafia boss and say yeah, I'm really in this for you. You don't really trying to help you out here. Now with this deal, you know, or like somebody, in a note with the different. Yes. I believe you are. So, you know, in the way that one of the fan companies or whatever, had these Visions for not being able to whenever it's like, basically the, the structure of the structure that those

companies operate in in the world like the world, use that emerge from those specific structures that ride on top of military-backed government's, you know, with abstruse legal codes, you know an asymmetric information sharing that are locked behind corporate veils and O and crafted by an entrenched Power Group over decades and decades to favor, certain people over others, like just structurally, those statements can't be true. They can't be valid. It's all gas lighting by Design, but it doesn't mean that that when people say statement like that. Always untrue it. Like, we have to create

better and that's what we're all doing here. As creating structures. They can allow for proper, people that have real goes like that. Real vision is like, really trying to solve these challenges. What are the challenges that we face at the annex cubism managing some of these tensions that exist with a slight? What we think is like the style philosophy and what we think we need to be to Be an Effective organization tension. Such as like, being in an open Oregon. Providing all contributors at home with like not overloading, our leaders in like, not getting bogged down in Frosty's. How do you

kind of approach? Such tensions? Do you promise to be solved entrance to be managed a figment of like being early in the Dallas wing space in the gift and you can see a lot of speculative creation. What aspect of the building like, there might be this problem in the future and I'm going to build this big brittle system to handle it. That's not a great way to design really. That's the kind of design that comes from one's own. But when you design based on actual living tension, you notice all of that presents tension in the system.

Then you can create structures that are organic. That's how nature designs these are structures. That will, that will grow in can flex, and breathe, and change, instead of be brittle. So, we really try and practice tension driven design, you know, try and see what's right in front of you. Instead of what you think, might emerge. There's always a balance there. I mean, you have to also be looking ahead, but, you know, those actual living tensions in any system or the doorway right there. The gateway to to Freedom into creation. The

opposite perspective. Do you think there's like an advantage to having this like forward-looking perhaps brittle design? I think it's it depends on how you hold it. Right? So it's great to look ahead and say, oh, what my things be like in like strategically, let's think about what I wrote map is in and let some would think about what you might need to make and maybe we can start playing with it. But then if you hold a kind of lightly like that and you open it up, you know, but then if you're focusing, all your effort on something that's a year out that may or may not happen, you know,

instead of the stuff that's right in front of you maybe look at why you know to get really task was like a dad that produces software which the eunuchs go out this as well. Do you guys adopt like a child processes of like one of two organizations? Are you guys also doing as an opportunity to approach for the blank state? You know, we tried a lot of different things and we're really emergent inorganic and how we work. But you know, just over the past few months, a lot of the engineering teams have been trying new new processes and using task tracking doing sprints and spikes to do

research and experiments in amount of learning-by-doing at urine and experimentation and people bringing in different wisdom from different places. They've been in trying those things and seeing what works but really ever won at your Aunt gets to decide for themselves, how they work. So we try these things. If they were more people, start liking them and share them. And then and then new things, new process, it to Ella experimentation can be frustrating, right? Especially when it doesn't work and you feel like, you know, you're probably like wasting their time or

whatever. What were the three conditions necessary to have adopted? Such a horrid framework to stuff like experimentation instead of falling back on Sprint planning and stuff like that. That's a good question. You in the early days of urine? I think it was just you know, a lot of that of that you post came from Andre, you don't came from the early people that were around back then and I've just like doing like where do ores we like to make things, you know, and and we don't really want bureaucracy, you know, and we're we're we're willing

to take risks and for things to fail, you know, and and that's really formed to how we how we weren't. Something that's kind of popped up at the next stop is like as you scale and as an organization grows, we always have a new guard of people that want to make sure that they are heard and their opinions are respected. And there's kind of this tension a little baby. Like this old garden and you got a contributors. I'd be curious. If, like, you think this is something you're in Felder inherit aspect of an open organization and how you post something like that. Oh, yeah. Conflict is

part of the game. I mean, there's always going to be conflict people with different ideas people stepping on each others toes. And one person didn't get enough information on this thing and why not? Apparently, I was supposed to be, and you're hiding something. I know it. Got it. Are there certain processes that you think you found valuable that manage conflict or the conflict that the organization kind of conflict. Resolution process is very good one and just a breakdown, really simply. As is coming from this sun is ethos of real Sovereign tree real

autonomy, you know, self-management each person besides themselves. So what happens when somebody's being an asshole, you know what happens when somebody is underperforming are making really bad decision over and over again. What one way is is, is you instead of having there be some committee that's in charge of making, sure everyone stays in line cuz I know we're all human beings. Here. We can all stand up for ourselves. If I am in conflict with something you were doing. I talked to you about it in the first step of the conflict resolution process is just to have that

conversation and say hey dude, like I don't know why you're doing this is causing these problems. Maybe you can work it out together. And if you can't work it out in that one call, then the next step is you do another call and you bring it a third party just to help. Listen, that person isn't there to decide for you. It just there to listen. And then you have the same conversation and maybe get resolution this time. And if not, then you can keep escalating it, right. It's a lot more talking than a lot of autistic people in Indy 500. What is does

work? Go to talk a little bit about like Dowling and what you mean, like why you think it's important and like how you see it as being able to scale to technology. I would like to talk about that. Yes. So like most people think about the how's your leg machine and we vote and then the proposal goes and that's the decision-making. That is, that is one way to make a decision analysis. Safe is another way to make a decision. But if you look at any organization, any sophisticated group of people, there are so many different types of decisions

need to be made. In, all of those decisions are not a good fit for coin. Voting has a great tool, right? But is not the only way to make decisions without a doubt and we don't have tooling for all of the other things that need to happen. So a year and we've been developing a lot of this in a coordinated. We've been developing a lot of this and if you take that multivariate dimensional space of decision-making and a group of flawed human beings, there is deficient. He made fast and slow and was it have high impact in one Thin? Need way in from buying, from a lot of different people and

ones that don't matter. It was slicing the space up and seeing that there's a gated on chain decisions. They're all changes. Is there a gate of decisions that require some type of consensus process, their ungated decisions that anybody should go to make? Then here's how you deal with the decision goes wrong, but we don't have a lot of the tooling to support this, you know, there's so much more to really needed. So one of the ways we've been working on that is through governments to which gave Shapiro and I wrote a urine, which muscle constrained delegation, which is a way to instead

of delegate voting power, which you see a lot of like, you know, I'm change voting systems allow you to do, you can delegate decision-making power. You can say, okay the decisions about fees for this Vault are delegated to this group of people with a with a visible sign of ship. And these the signers of that group can be changed through this process and it's transparent what they're doing. And if they're doing a good job holding, Great, if not the boat. The wifey holders, can vote to move that power somewhere else. Right now. That's all kind of in the social there. But

we're starting, you know, it's all happening telegram groups because there's not a good to handle it, but people like, you know, no citizen their zodiac platform in Colony and an orca. And all these different people are working on cool ways to implement, this type of tooling. And that's one thing. I had one of my favorite way to slice a Dallas decision-making. Matrix up is through compensation-related decisions, and non-confrontational into decision, because spending money is one of the biggest things that organization. But then there's a lot of other decisions that are not. That's

where I'm spending money. Like policies, practices, whatever. So, a lot of stuff I'm talking about works. Well for both, but compensation-related decisions, need specialized chilling as well. And that's where a coordinate kind of came from, which is a way to do really decentralized resource-sharing you have. All you need is, you know, a budget stream or Reason to spend that money in a group of people. And if you put those three things again, Handles all the rap. Nobody has to make the decision for who gets what the whole group. Does that a decentralized way? And the dream for

that is to allow, basically, you can take any idea, any new idea, and slap a coordinate, give circle on it and that idea can grow, right? If the ideas making money, the money comes in new people, coming to circle, the circle. Can also grow in a decentralized way through watching, any, free people or two. People are seven, people have you want agree that a new person should be part of the circle? And then they are, and they can start receiving resources for whatever compensation they do in. This is a world where you don't have to worry about. O, I'm committed. I'm married to this company or

like, you know, I'm just doing this or like, here's my time clock or like yours. My okay. Are you are just creating whatever value that you believe is important for this group. And if it's good, the other people you're working with will recognize that in the reward, you for this gift Circle and you'll start making money and you don't have to say anything. That's all you have to do not to hire. Anybody really, you know, you can work in multiple. 4000, same time. And money just starts to flow where the value is created. Is there a protocol Centric way of Distributing resources? Yeah,

a lot of fasting questions coming out of that. The one I'd like to explore at the metal level is no to implement stuff like cornet poor decision-making or conflict resolution for him. We could sounds like you need an element of trust. Empathy and safety between the contributors in Adel, which is hard to do, especially behind, like, Anonymous profiles, or just the internet about, how do you get a potion in general? This is another favorite topic. I think

trust is one of the most misunderstood things and crypto. So we often talk about trust business and it's incredibly important. But this place works in layers at the bottom layer. We need this incredibly robust adversarial, environment of the blockchain, you know to allow for trustless, you know, Jared Ledger utility, right? So that you're not you not to worry that. Your coin is going to take him some by somebody else because the rules are super clear and it's very, very firm. This is like the physics, you know, this is like the Interaction of this Collective space and that needs you

don't want trust there. You do not want trust there. It's that they're sharks there, that start for us, but on top of that, it's okay to have trust. And actually, there always is trust. You know, what? No matter how you do a payment. Let's say I'm hiring somebody to do a job. I can either pay them before the job, or I can pay them after the job. If I pay them before they do the job. Then I'm trusting them to do it. Well, you know, if you pay they paint them after the job then they're trusting me. Is that okay? Will you can you can put a system on top of that escalation game or something

like that? If it's a problem, then you're trusting that game some extent to you can get a rid rid of a lot of that trust. But if there's always going to be trusting especially just in a team, like think about the two people, you work most closely with right. Do you want there to be trust in that group or not? It's actually you do want trust, you do want trust there because that those are the types of open bonded, relationships that makes being a human being nice. Actually, you know, you want to trust and rely on people and we need to build the tooling that supports those types of creative

trust in relationships. As well as the average tail relationships. Not all of life is a stereo. There's a lot of collaborative live up to So do you have a perspective on how we can kind of establish that sense of trust and safety? When were all on the internet and interacting virtually because there's so much more trust that I've seen in people that are building stuff on etherium blockchain than in previous legal environment that I've been and I run a bunch. I used to have a number of the normal companies, you know, there's a

lot less trust. There's a lot more contract in his lot more paper, but in in crypto, there's a lot just like, I don't even know you you're a fucking cartoon character, but you're ready to send me a shitload of usdc on a handshake, you know, like that's pretty normal. Yeah, I think that's because it's just like, any human in the human developmental cycle. Really? Right. When were kids we have to, we have to create the the Developmental Pathways allow us to feel safe in our own bodies. And then I am adult side. And then as you grow, you create, you grow more and more of

the Developmental Pathways, Big Lake PO today and and John Webster, and many other people have studied. And in the collectors bases, the same like, you have to have this very, very solid. First level of value storage on the blockchain. And once you have the best one we've ever made in the history of this earth, right? Is the blockchain. And it's so so good. It's so strong. It allows for a really beautiful trusted growth above. It allows for us to move these new way is on top of them. Awesome. I think I'm getting the signal that our time is running out to have time for one more question or Do

you have any final thoughts? Track is the Dallas? What are we talked about that? You like them parked at the audience? I mean, I couldn't be more excited to be working on this than anything else. Ever. You know, it had to be here with all these people, all you guys working on it to, it's it's really amazing. I guess my thought is just like this is amazing stuff like at the Forefront of this emerging industry with all these amazing people in like to take a moment to

be grateful for this whole event and never want to hear it. So, thank you. LOL clothes.

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September 15 - 17, 2021
Denver, CO
16
60.52 K
dao , governance, investing, nft, token

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