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TOKEN2049 London 2021
October 8, 2021, Online, London, UK
TOKEN2049 London 2021
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The European Crypto Scene
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  • Description
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About the talk


About speakers

Marcus Hughes
Chief Risk Officer at BitMEX
Charlie Morris
Founder and Chief Investment Officer ByteTree Asset Management (subsidiary Crypto Composite Ltd) at Crypto Composite
Tim Grant
Head at SIX Digital Exchange
David Wachsman
CEO at Wachsman

Charlie is the founder and chairman of ByteTree.com; an ambitious blockchain 2.0 software project to provide real-time economic statistics and data from blockchains. Charlie also writes the Fleet Street Letter.

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Specialties: * Digital Assets * Tokenisation * Blockchain & Distributed Ledger Technology * Financial Technology * Quantitative finance/financial engineering * Portfolio strategy/construction * Risk management * Marketing/sales strategy

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David Wachsman is Chief Executive at Wachsman, a leading professional services firm for organizations leveraging emerging technologies to achieve their missions. Founded in 2015, Wachsman has grown to become a global company with regional headquarters in New York, Dublin, and Singapore. Wachsman provides strategic advisory, communications, events management and production, and corporate development services.

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Hello everybody and welcome to the first conversation of the day and undoubtedly the best one. No question about the European crypto scene, which is quite extensive and has Mike. So eloquently put it. We have some heavy weights understands to talk a lot about it. So we're going to kick off with some introductions. Charlotte start with u, Good morning. Sleepyhead. My name is Johnny Morris. I'm a chief investment officer at Braintree, dates of business, blockchain. JCPenney's business. Been around a few years. We pride ourselves on dates of accuracy. I don't save her medicine. I'm at 97th on

my background. I came from the, the big out, the old well to finance guy was if I manage with many years of HSBC. Excellent Marcus, ironically bases. European business joins about 3 years ago. Now feels like a lifetime in the cortex base through Steve is in traditional Finance as well. Thank you. And everyone. My name is Tim gone. I'm the head of Europe for a Galaxy digital. I think, by now everybody knows what we do. We're across sales and trading Asset Management mining advisory Venture principal Investments. And of course, custody given our impending closing of

avocado acquisition, start really in every area of the spice. Historically, I attract fly guy, but it's been six and a half years since I met Queen B and C 19th of March 2015. Always remember now. Wow, I had no idea about blockchain and Bitcoin before I turned out that day and by the end of the day, I had bought Bitcoin at $200 on coinbase, but let's not talk about what happened to Oscar. I bought it at $200. It was impressed that you got through kyc that quickly so well. So lots of talk about it, but as as mentioned, this is a toxic smoke, the European crypto. See,

so where does Europe stand for the rest of the world? I mean, this is a country or is, are they in the continent? Has to stay with your email dad's idea of where some of the most prominent names in crypto. I'm only originated what are doing their development. And today, you can probably find more GitHub pull on your app anywhere else in the world, but try to start with you. You have seen some interesting data points. Talking about first 10 of the adoption overall a Bitcoin. Your organization is really tracking flows of Bitcoin right now. What's going on over on the Bitcoin Market in where

does Europe stand when it comes to bitcoin crypto trailer to send that to a torch for most effective way to my agent session European section, which would include you can't Africa and the Americas which refused North and South America, notice the USA and and it's notable that Asia. What's huge until the China ban? Basically. Now, you're a pretty country gets way and I think that there was a lot of the best of volume in the market every day at 2 p.m. With America, wakes up, but I think one of those, one of the problems

with the Unchained activity is is tax in the United States for people to buy Bitcoin and then they didn't move it without thinking you have done for me to be much more in defying. They still took things all the data pointed, what happened to the night. Well, let's look at the Sun seem so tired of the grayscale Bitcoin trust which which holds the $650,000 Bitcoin here, 2013 pretty pretty good stuff. That's still taking clothes idea if this year but we track the public available funds in the world and that's exchange-traded funds. Mainly they started in Europe back in

2014 a long time before they just have anywhere else to do. In Sweden now that very active in Switzerland. And it's really funny when we seen lots of time noticing Canada as well. So they said the Hub spacer, the potato halves. What threats and management last night you did last night. How many Bitcoins to the songs by yesterday to thousands ten million dollars in refunds for letting yesterday, which I think is a pretty amazing that collapsed in the market made made you in time. I've been picking up in enough time with fucking shit accumulation. Again

reports indicating that Europe is overtaking of the geographies. Yeah, I think it is definitive. I was just found it on Sunday. She was going to check it out as a chain Alice's. Defy transaction report and you will know, Jen. I was just great. What should we trust the quality of their data? And you are three elements, actually quite a big report and it's worth being the oldest elements that are already quite meaningful 31. And this is the one that I think you should a great for this panel. The percentage of transactions globally,

Europe is now the biggest of the thirties 303 jurisdictions, I didn't I did not see that coming. I do I thought we were a little bit away from that but it's, it's definitive. It's true. It's never happened. So that's great. Secondly, your apps on surprising me but it's west side is the biggest trading partner of the other jurisdictions. And so that's pretty significant. And thirdly, then then you ask a question. Why where did the transaction volume come from? But it comes from the large institutional, 10 million + tickets. So that tells us but basically institutional Defy is being

run out of Europe. Everybody's trading more with your life than any other jurisdiction. And and this is just for the platform. Now, wherever you're at comes into play on, it was interesting about this conversation with you people. This week is you look at the other two jurisdictions us and niasia and though they go in earlier. They was somewhat plagued by by issues under the very natural issues that we will know you don't accept it cetera, natural issues. I would say. Publishers, including the alarm is here, and I know.

But here it's been muted. We haven't seen as much of that, sort of negative headlines. Post. I am, I think that's now about to switch and be a benefit because the European Community has been a bit slow on the uptake by things that says say. But now we seeing this increase in activity with no real negativity to get away from, shall we? Go ahead wins, and I'm sure we'll talk more about regulation but it's an extraordinary platform for Europe to go on and dominate from here. So grouchy, coinbase and wax, and oil found in. If we in in

United States, for the course, with major European president, Mark, is he responsible for the European business of what I think, is the most important company? No question within our industry. And clearly than they put you in charge, because they think it's a big deal. What are you seeing from? Your Vantage Point is they're real growth opportunity in your event is happening at the retail level institutional. Infrastructure or everywhere. Are you going to the wind is even a year or two ago to send someone in the mainstream. Media will generally was in a bit of a side thing. I keep posting

negative aspects show live in exchanges. The golf industry as a whole course, Federal Central of reputable place closer challenges. There are problems that need to be tackled the same in any nice and industry or more people moving to Let the amount of products or Services until you find that you needed some to my mind, buying Bitcoin investment. I think that's changing. Now. I think we are moving more towards this kind of utility face, but it's a whole range of different products and services

kind of how I look like crap. So they've already kind of captured people's imagination. I think it's been a revelation. They really have you seen enough said about six to 12 months ago, a game. It was primarily kind of crops and Market make. His poops are hedge funds, that kind of dominate set volume to 40 on. The audience isn't exactly the same type of institutional Finance you down. Menaul came from before at least. It wasn't until you've seen a lot of country National Pension funds traditional hedge

funds. And so, on offices individuals, everybody now is What do you think about narrative has shifted? I was going to say, I think we're really the beginning of the journey had this is not they hadn't seen at. This is things are literally just just beginning and a lot of encouraging signs. I think regulation which I'm sure we'll talk to him. So he knows that's why I think that we can pull into the kind of can trust and confidence in Industry as well. So

it is Crystal Clear. You see this as a growth Market Europe, if you finish a n e, you can Define in so many different ways, but if you look at the With the I remember when I started then I was doing this circuit back in early 2016, you doing this, these conferences back then it was a different bunch of people and it was a different Bible together, but we would often compared to the beginning of the internet that Old Chestnut, like we're about naughty naughty X versus the beginning, the internet. And it's like,

well, whatever. I don't know what year it was, but I know this, the pace of acceleration versus what we were going straight back then is vastly superior that. You know, this this is an inflection point where you just look at this year alone because some of them talking with someone else this morning. Look at it. Look some of the stuff that you thought was completely bananas. Six months ago is now just part of the mainstream, some of the NFC stuff, some of the the moon mess of the stuff. That's how did it get your head around. So we're moving at Breakneck pace. Box. And and so much has

happened to look at. Look at every big traditional financing a situation that don't tear it into this place. Looks like the Queen by story to fit the Galaxy Story. Look at the IU. I'm looking but we still are only really just at the end of the beginning. Like now we got this phase weather out. There are infrastructures we can we can rely upon most Bill though. There is a lot of money in but where is not what I was saying yesterday, where are you at, but a small fraction of the of the assets and get into. This is this is the end of the beginning now or in the next phase where it's real gross.

Its bit more institution was a bit more buttoned-up spit much did. It's a bit less Bernard b e a u m in certainly did a lot more money in his face. That's clear. But I think was a more interesting things to talk about and into all of you here are responsible to respect organization, is the flow, human capital to space. It seems today to me that there's less of a career risk and the people in Europe and I wouldn't stay jobs in crypto. The previously simply, wouldn't they try wave? They thought it might be too risky. Are you finding the same thing to me? And let me make sure to find it

for this specific panel. Are you finding that to be the case when you're hiring people across the continent? Yeah, I mean, people won't actively to work in Crimson. Ask a question of you and having to sell them. So, I got three years ago when I was kind of bored myself. How much is it had a huge conviction that this was going to be big as the guy who joined just before the crypto winter, hit straight, but I didn't get what you've been through. That. Kind of. It's all I'm used to, this is a longer interested in

joining feel like something revolutionary. And then yeah, I did not people coming into the space, you know, this is growing exponentially and of course people bring with them. The kind of processor is in the structures in the to help going to take things to the next level. Did you see that as well on back when you were at The X definitely? It's been an interesting Journey. You know, I can't even in 2015 your Bitcoin, clean it with that. But you know Siri was

not really that much of a thing yet. It was 2015 Fleer came into being but it wasn't me. I did the Consciousness defy wasn't something that we talked about in the same way we do now. So when I came in, I own some Bitcoin and I have scoured the internet for information and that got me the job at doesn't work anymore. You kind of need to know what you're talking about. So it's interesting that there's a lot of people that want to get in but you kind of have the ball has raised for the quality of people that you need to be effective very, very quickly. So you don't,

you support a talent pool, but you still going to be The Shining, but it it's hot. And I just want to attack any. Anyone who's any good. Is going to be the doctor in multiple places and they don't think it's worth mentioning is as you as we build. Our Workforce has, especially those of us who came from the traditional. Well, you can't think the way you did in the traditional wild, you now, have to think about having some guy has two people who've seen it, the booms in the Boston know, kind of how to deal with a large organization, and, and, and etcetera, etcetera, and the journey of

building a company. But you need the youth, because there's a different mindset. You do all Best Traders, our youngest trailers because they understand the the, the complex web of projects and defy connectivity out there. And that's just something that a lot of us around when you need to, you need a bit of a combination of all of the above. Nice, kind of exciting gets really excited about it. So I can fight that we go. All these young brilliant people, in our company, mixing with it, with a traditional fight. I

tried for guys, like, we need to text you and I which is why we both pic of Contrition like instruments into into crypto. One of the great flaws. We passed, we simply didn't have the infrastructure you talked about Gastonia, that he both of you talked about security and there's a reason why has happened multisig Wallace friends since were like, nearly impossible to find them, even to install an osis wallet for aetherium was very complicated remains to be the case as an example. And that was pretty much the way some music to work. But it also comes down to trading products. For instance.

How would one know what, price should be the Charlie knew you've been building, you're in the UK, an organization that is trying to help transform the way we understand Bitcoin for this journey for for your organization so far. And what, what is that mean? In the context of London? In the, in the texting here? Yeah, I did not know that fast. I didn't get to you yesterday, European panels. And how does how much blockchain Jason Isabel by Europe compared to other parts of the world where the US's number one, according to the fitting that the best nights and I have an 18:00

notes downloaded and then he comes in second at 1700 and then you go France. Then after that. I'm kind of redundant comes in fifth, but I'm not to make something other ways with trading infrastructure the center of capital projects on here because it's a Monday have. Let's face it. The dating site. Is it in. My background was up with a multi-asset fund manager and I used to be a big sign of things like gold as will tend to that sets, the mudgee markets beyond the free two thousand eight years in the communities. He sorts of things with different contractors about

trying to find a good shopper. So it's not about trying to make money fishing rod without loss of risk, and you could do that by having Looks lovely play, Solaris got sent and some exposure to high risk assets. We can do it by having a negative correlation. Be negative. Correlation is always been a big thing in the in the asset management space and the pink one was exactly that but he was suddenly something you could put a small amount in for 3000 that had great ocean and they continue to do so little time. But I wanted to make sure it

because I think if you've got finished your responsibility and you'll make the investment decisions of the houses, is it usually messes, you going to be able to pick up check the tires? He can stay and wait on Twitter and there's a good story about El Salvador in it. It's going to be more to it than that. And say I was looking for measurables and entered my mind. It was, it was the, what is the, what is the Quincy? What is job if you want me to transfer value it? So, that's cool. If it transfers, a lot of times he's been in. I just want to

make sure that by the way, so it but you've been building this in in London. And so we've been building a team out here. Do you recruit people from here from traditional Finance? Team will change in time? Who's who's playing free PPA at Oxbridge? School's GED and they any wants do it for us. He wants to come to get a real job with the realtor. I would have been a good time. That's the thing. We're transforming that right. Now. These are the real forms today and a little bit earlier when the challenges perhaps in Europe is that it's still

multi-jurisdictional. Of course, there's the the web of different organizations. Whether the EU and UK, which is not EU any longer. What is that mean for your organization's? You have to keep on top and have like live Intelligence on kind of Regulation and policy across. Europe is is that something that you're paying a lot of attention to unquestionably, one of the core tenants with flip a coin bases. Its trust in a trust in the two hours going to make that your asses to secure and and that we engage constructively with which is nothing else to say, to cross the crypto industrial, some

recently is what time in Europe right now in the European Union. I'm going to meet that coming down the track. We can expect that to be a kind of holding ice cream was most most most of your available. Now, what we've seen prior to these, these regimes coming in, is a number consultations in the UK, the FCA HMT. And someone has started to think about and what's the framework that we need to build out? And I think, as soon as the sooner rather than later would be like census. I'm kind of at least initial free one, cuz I think that we will have some

clarity. I think we will. I think we will be great to see how to get everything resolved on. This is a very fast evolving space. I take me to categorize a sheet of different types of us has to do. You mean like their Securities? There's utility tokens, which it exists that right there, different Frame Works. Do you think that someday we might actually see standardized across Europe to see. I think it's the European Union. We willing to meet you either way.

It is critical as a starting point, was a Pioneer and that I really thought that I would discuss To familiarize myself with moved on the industry has changed. While I am out issues and kyc is rid of physical chemistry security of assets and so on. You know, I don't think we should try and sell for every every problem but we can start with a frame-up and then build on it has decided to do that. But it's with a script. I've been away many countries now, bro,

some kind of registration registration is required to actually look at you looking at your business and I think The Regulators across your be using that has been finding mission to understand Crystal businesses protects changes, installing to have a type of clarity to know that what you're doing is within some guard rails, to let you be created within that. So ideally you have here a reputable players, you know, pricing with incoming. Cigar trials have been set. So I think I'm supposed to see the industry and of course

you an option that you don't really go out existing, you going to eat money in payment services rules. That was a big gap. Fast wack. Richard doesn't need Lee fit in most instances into those rules. This moves very quickly. Dependapotamus already is Singapore in Japan weather. What kind of jeans that have been in place? Now, for a little bit of time to see the u.s. Is a lot more and something with Federal, that's the states and then certainly in with a lot less Clarity than anywhere in Europe. I mean, you've spent a lot of time, understanding the, digital security space

security tokens Preston. And we've seen it, bureaucracy is kind of slow that down to a greater extent. Perhaps then was imagine back in 2016, 2017. Do you think that there's going to be a burgeoning digital security, see, in Europe? Are things going to be Global, you know, when people come out with his is nothing more certain in life than death and taxes. They should we add regulation on to it as well. And rightly so long regulation we believe in it with and it's important we trying to get around it for the rest of the Risen point in trying to get it right. It's all very well talking about it

in a non-secure is time is, but do you know? There are seven hundred trillion dollars of of securitized assets were out there. That's the Holy Grail fit for defy and I think wait I think intuitively most of us know that but it's much more as much harder to make that happen. And it is partly bureaucracy, but frankly, I haven't been in charge for the current incumbents in Triad fire really control the regulated Securities business have every incentive to be defensive. Who stated that? Not going to dive into this and it's probably because I just don't even

understand it and that's why I took it to a number of boards of the biggest banks in Europe and is usually one or two of the board members you get it. And most of them. I can barely on the way she sits with a reality and they tend to be older is Novi Sad. Yesterday. I think, you know, most people over 50 don't understand that. The entities that's true of so many elements of the spice does it does a sort of defensive posture but you know, I just spent the last year-and-a-half running sdx. I'm glad to see the sdx go to spin the licenses to be a regulated exchange and CSV for regulated natively.

Should digital security starts a big deal. I wish them well, and hopefully we can we can all wet with them in the in the future but that's the beginning of what I think. Within a few years will be a movement and I talked about this with Michael Shaw, head of investment banking. We were doing so much business that I investment-banking, we cannae fast enough because there's so many players in the space. You need advice but not using anything digital when we advise how they raise money and what they do. The next Frontier is advising them to raise equity and debt instruments in regulated the

Securities and it's only a matter of time. The problem is, you need more infrastructure. You need more regulation. You can't, you can't jump ahead of that one cuz you'll just go to jail. It's that simple. But the spoils a massive doing that whole complex of equity and debt. And real estate Structured Products, instruments do digital. It's going to be an extraordinary, boom. And, and it's going to be a January democratizing. We should hang out at the cabin, the counterparties in every trade, right? Are going to also need to be on board with technology. Have

we seen the beginnings of that type of mass adoption is required. Have you seen that in your conversations? Currently our youth? Are you having something to conversations that are going to eventually lead into digital transformation? Is act like web, three types of a transformation. I'm at these large organization. Yes, I can give you the timeline here. When I started in this space are all three very much Enterprise blockchain focused behind by Banks and I'm talking to Banks and we were talking to Banks. Back in 2015 16 about where the bones would go in the

blockchain, where the records are gone, the blockchain and here we are. Six years later. We still talking about it. They still hasn't happened. But underneath the understanding the pieces of infrastructure. The regulation has moved forward. Like we are materially closer to that than me by 6 years ago. Every single big institutional Financial Services player on the planet has a some sort of blockchain the July 2nd. Rest of it is just accept the fact now that if you don't you're going to be a dinosaur. Pretty quickly like a rolling into this so that alone gives us comfort that this is going to

happen. But that's where we, you know, we kind of just talked to me of his exciting. We had so much progress, but it's so much more to do so it so it looks promising. But I think to be fair, the digital regulate, the door secure. Is it still a little while ago, part part of your visit. It's also putting a coin days engaged in other organizations to do without talking about even your own organization. Have you seen a flurry of an activity in the European crypto seen? Do you accept the fact that that's going to lesson or increase over time?

I think the amount of innovation is happening is just extraordinary. Elev8, the reality is on the other side of it, which is quite interesting. Is that you know, we have Adventures on The Taste kind of positions in a number of different businesses in the Crypt a space. That's something I can just been really successful at the same path. I'm sorry. I think she will continue. It's impossible for any one player to be able to to to cover all bases in the business. What I do think we'll see that kind of consolidation. You want to look at the mall

kind of traditional space as well. I think mature thing happened. But again, I still think was such a such a venture sides and weed weed to heard earlier a 10ft perhaps aren't well-known understood by people under the over the age of 50 identities or something. That's it. And I can say this, we were very fortunate to help launch and if he's in the first place in the concept, That most people didn't know what they were until this year and suddenly we had this is he the people sale for instance. I think was kind of breakout

moment. Right? We're suddenly the front page of the New York Times The Wall Street Journal in the F. Teeth were talking about nfts. Do you find that? I mean, you're none of your business is are primarily nft Focus businesses. Are you finding that the air cover from nft is becoming mainstream. Is that benefiting your organization's? What what do you think impact? You can just going to have on on the European market actually Charlie what's wrong with you? But it's okay. I think this face is not determined by the price of Bitcoin. It goes beyond that you

use human capital, giving it to the states and capital idea is more, that works, more things, more utilities, more applications. And and so I think that's, that's really fascinating. The Benchmark has a relationship between the old world to finance, the new world of Finance. It used to be the officer was the Ft, the food of the tone of the conversation that Steve which has been for her. Haha for the last eight years left by the alphabet o c k l o v e s t

content coming through and asked if we could you stay for another rabbits become OST get with the program and not with this face is not trying to drink through a fire hose. There's just so much happening in Staley new projects. You can possibly stay on top of it with trying to cover it and it's hard enough. You know, that's what we do. Kind of magic more people are doing. Who is he? There was no older. They do it is it is, it is leaking pretty quickly. Who is

had the view that somehow or another? This space will be the officer at the future of, of, of how everything's done. How busy is Vons ad on how, how money works? I really hope we do. You see Central Bank, digital currencies in in civilized countries all countries and what remains free if it would hold a 32 means these days. If I hope you see that's not sufficient to take right there, everyone. I actually just personal opinions. Do you have for some opinions? Cbc's, good day exist. Because by the way, just have to give it a point on it, many countries in Europe, for certes,

Pyramid thing with this, many, many of these quite publicly. I will never go anywhere and do anything. I mean, things, centralized nature of us has buy Bitcoin in a prison benefits that I'll give it to you. Get with cbc's, but is there a space in an ecosystem? So many different types of glasses before me. Different function. I think I will come away with the traditional Thai House while I think exist, but it's the song Norma's benefits to Simply Having It On chain asset, right? It's if

it allows for much more efficient and efficacious transfer, rub a Valium. So, Tim, what's your stance? I have a reasonably unique take on that. So many of you have been in the spice, smart. Remember, project Jasper, which I think was probably the o.g. Cbdc project which bank was projectile Sports. Anybody remember? Canada bank account of that. So I remember January 2016 being up in the bank account and over the big four Canadian Bank since we stopped at that project. So that was one of the very first for moving. Everybody knows that cuz it still alive. That was started because I

was talking with, deputy prime minister of Singapore and Ravi men on that if I may ask, I remember the conversation and it was like she's very second conversation that turned into project. Ruben if anybody knows why School projector, then I'll give you a big price. It's not many people. We know why it's called that. And then there were few more portant important line rock that came out of all three came out, my lab in the more recent years on a project. Hello? Leticia, which is the Swiss national bank and then we can project your what's your sister's not suffice to say. I've talked to about

just about every Central Bank of the lost six years about this. And I think the point you made it the right one. CBC is too broad. It's a category that their retail there. Wholesale, there are many different flavors of of, of Unchained, stablecoin fiat currency, that it is an incredible set of dice for a different different types of things are dangerous to say, the CDC is one thing. But through the years and the kind of the quality of the analysis, that

the deepening understanding of the underlying Tech, the evolution of the underlying Tech. Now, it's, I think it's inevitable that we'll see these different flavors of of, of money and I think we need them. And I think this is wise for them and some of them will be in early in his word that he is well respected his head. It's going to be driven by us at the end of the day. It's going to be driven by cost to Consumers and what we want to do and how we want to do it. And that's what's exciting about this face. Right? Like we will Define where the capital goes and what kind of capabilities

finally But I do think it's inevitable. I think, for instance, the Swiss National Bank it is is going to do it. They going to do a wholesale CBD, see, which allows banking institutions to engage in due form. A cone are Atomic settlement, which then would you see settlement times? And it's just that alone unlocked working capital. It's better. We don't really understand this, but I should have let you know the man and woman on the street, but if you understand the plumbing of financial services, that should in theory, slow, down to the final product will be by. I should

be better for us as consumers about that. Coinbase is well known as perhaps one of the most popular wallets in the world, for the football wallet function. So many people around the world in Europe and Beyond have coinbase wallet on their phone. On, the desktop. Are you finding, and, and threw that they're using for that maybe buying Bitcoins the first time $200 worth back in 2015. They're using that as the That accelerate a catalyst to learning a lot more to questions from Marcus. First is, are you seeing continued growth at coinbase? And on, on the other wallet side, are you seeing

more and more people take it off? And then also, what are you doing? Is an organization to kind of further catalyze the other girls that are you investing in education in one way and some Zagros. It's it's incredible. How do you know I have to say. Kind of Stepping Stones many people, which historically I think would always have been, you know, if I'm going to do a bunch of reasons, not white, people might get interested in different assets. We really focus on trying to demystify the space and just as we touched on the Ft in the broader narrative,

I think actually people often have that kind of said that, I understand this is too complicated for me and we start this messaging on educational, some kind of campaign. So we have product so you can go on to the website and you can We found a lot of people doing it like that. By the way, you didn't pay to learn about crypto. Particular. Asset compiled is incredible your application. So I think these kind of things powering a range of really interesting

applications. That's why I think the more we can we can educate people. Then we can bring people in and that includes regulator install on. I think everyone's got any face, you do, you know, a little bit about Bitcoin and you a little bit about blockchain, then all the sudden you realize the people's knowledge is like, okay now I stopped to see that actually has a broad range of these cases. I think that's why we take things that that's where the next billion users come from is from now. You're not going to be mystifying this nice. What can I see the toys to go to the point we make

about nfts. This is something very abstract about loss of the stuff. We do in this place, that that is not sort of intuitive. The nfc's. Makes it something you understand. I was shocked. A few months ago is around the people time. I'm sitting at the kitchen table with the kids, and I was mentioning identities, and daddy. What's an entity that says, 1:51, boys night tonight, was a Nifty and I feel, alright. This is going to be, it's going to be interesting. How am I going to get this one across? You know what? It took 30 seconds because they play fortnite. And listen. Listen to

Knights Inn Ocean of digital assets that you can buy and sell using digital assets that you in different ways. Is it night to that generation? So, its 6, and therefore, that's one of the big reasons why I feel so useful cuz it's how I can get my head around. Something that I would want to own, which is Art, everybody understands that has value, because people want it, then you stopped to think about I would look in digital form. Then you put you through the transition into video games. Isn't that tricky. Now? We're going to the mexico-us. That was about hog. Tick tick, you explain what the

meta vs. Then then you can start talking about economics and the complexities of global finance and how everybody raises Capital, but like nxt's. Best thing that happened to us. I think, yes, it will certainly in the media right now. Media certainly been covering nft like crazy. It seems like everyday does a new celebrity selling some new collectible version of themselves, right? How has it have you found the media has shifted over time and it's perception of obscure to Industry with you and Whitey

final versus The Ugly, Bug Ball Street Journal. You know, what? The f t? Just says it how it is. And I've always appreciate that. But boy, oh boy, did they just lose touch him? This space was great to see them. Darren, see things like articles on the theory about what that means and what that could do article is an article that keeps coming up on my behalf about the ownership, and this would have how it how it going to shift changes in this new world. Like, now, we're talkin about things that matter. I mean not getting into. The sensation is in the things that kind of have happened in this

space. And that's why I think we were starting to see what you were talking about real. Well, that's that's why and if these that's why they've grabbed on to it because it's something everyone can understand what I want to see. Now I even in the loss of a few weeks ago for the blockchain encrypt, our thing and you, you hit those to get anything that's got that wood in it. And for many months, you still have the last thing that was there was two months old. Now, it's never more than a day or two since you had. Someone mentioned something about the spice and

then you drill in and it's it's it's starting to get into into meaty goodness about what this is going to do. So that that's a fantastic shift which might be reflection of Their audience of newspapers, have to write for Audiences to Marcus. What about you? Haven't? You've been the course of the space for the last several years, how have you seen me to shift overtime industry. I think you look city Amharic, my crypto. I am not just focusing on, you know, the unfortunate things happen, sometimes like hacks and scams, you know, this comes in every industry and I recorded as much as we can to try to

prevent them, but unfortunately, people sometimes do you lose money. So game. What's the steps to be taken to educate people? You know, I took two, two, two tickets album navigate to space without exposing themselves to risk. But on the positive side, many countries around the world developing countries. You going to Tracy's at 89%, but most people have no access to Toyota Financial Services. Possibility on your phone. And I have many of these friends

old version. Android simple low data usage app cuz they could Empower someone to start a business to go to save money. Ain't a thing, kind of messages. We need to drive to see as an industry. Is that and you think the reporters are are asking questions about that today are they are they went when they talk to you or are they asking good questions now and might perhaps eventually lead to a feature piece on something like International remittances example,

but but now I consistently find, you know, crossword across the broad spread. There was a very intelligent questions or I shall questions and it's continue to be the case, you know that the knowledge base has increased over time. So they're much more nuanced than sophisticated questions. I come at 3 now. Forget your game. I think I was just need to be realistic as the industry. We need to make the case for why this should interest in this story is This guy

really encourage them all the time. We talked about life-changing uses of Technology. But right now, a lot of conversation is what happened yesterday in the Bitcoin Market that your company's tracking quite closely. And I imagine you're Consulting all the time by media for determining what exactly occurred and imprecisely wife. Can you talk if you can leave a few minutes here, but I saw an interesting statistic at your booth, which was you that your organization believes that the fair price of

Bitcoin is less than the current price of Bitcoin. There's a substantial premium and that's been the case for a number of months now, so I understand we're going outside to cut those in your obscene, but this is an important topic. Do you think that quaint overpriced? Yeah. Why because the 11 traffic approximately hard from the January to April. When China was heavily involved and Alanis with the man of the moment. And then the traffic is crap since then. And I disagree that song by different dates providers around the world and 53 States agrees with the the, the

text from coinbase. I said, I think I'm not changing, and that could be 35 times signs. Latest dated any other phone, but the point is, you do believe in. You have some factual evidence. A reason why you think that Bitcoin is currently over price. Yeah. I don't think it's worth noting that it's just, it's just for the events. We haven't seen it on chain recovery. Okay, if you can see that by no fees, no transaction count, no transactions on you. I must

say you look at the Loft in things, like stablecoins, didn't interact with that going. That's what I say down in the state has more activity in the blockchain today. Then premaye block, Ford Mary Groth. You'll see you guys are both working and running very large organizations in finance. Although yours. No doubt making investments in D5 Marcus. What do you think about the fight? Personally? Do you believe that there's real Innovation happening there. Do you think it's a threat to Consumers? I do think that it's a bun potentially

regulation. I can you find The Regulators have to be concerned about how do we get a handle on this thing? Otherwise, How do you regulate something? Just totally decentralized? How do you get your hands around? Those are going to be the big questions that need to be answered in the United States. That did everybody's watching. I think there's a little visibility now almost at the rounds, around this place to centralize demonstrations in the galaxies of the world. Not trusted

way into the album navigate that provide advice and smelling. So I think it would be a place where I trusted centralized parties. Will Google have a role 2500, is it is anyone's guess, but I do have the key issue is going out. How will that be regulated? How would that be managed by Ken worth noting? That coinbase? Definitely Ventures sometimes invest in D5 related, organizations worth noting that you're Playing on both sides. Very intelligently. I might add Galaxy doing the same. Please, stand up before I answer it. Like I

said, I'm a mess. I'm long before I, we are only five. We think that's really exciting movement, is its rally Innovations. Happening is where the new products and services for consumers. The corporation's for governments will arrive in the next few years. It's super exciting, some stuff will fail, sometimes will do. Well. It's the B. What we have is what we should see. And more people should invest in it because then we'll get more Innovations. However, will the real defy, please stand up defy as a, as a, as a, as an end in itself, is not the point sets, as

you rightly said, sephi has its place Bitcoin. If anything to prove to all of us that the defy thing was it was a myth because so many centralized elements have to be built to get more people into it, but defy has a place in Define has a place. The real answer is democratization. You can maybe use other woods but it's it's supposed to be centralized. I think the real defies democratize Finance what she's going to leverage big element, 55 and big elements of sephi and Regulation and and freedom. But ultimately, what are we all doing this? For? It's a foster that a

cheaper more effective way of living Our Lives. That's what that's why I should stay here. And that's why this is such an exciting space because we all see it. We will know it and we will think the 20th century model sucks. We will think that the capital, you know, that the Friedman capitalism in the sixties and seventies, which created shall hold the Primacy model. We can go to the point. Where is Facebook's getting hold over the coals right now to being very naughty boys. Like that sucks. That's the 20th Century Construction. We need to get away from. Let's get to a future. Where is

Foster. That's the cheapest. I found more controlled more ownership, defy, as it's currently, cold is going to help that but the real defy should spend Is democratized financing? We need all of the above? Well, so that's honestly inspirational. And I really agree with you. Michael Anderson from Adventures calls, it an open-source Finance, but I think the market is fine. It's not even be a more holistic term to describe it. So what are you most excited about Charlie? We only a few minutes left in the panel about in terms of crypto today. What what do you think is the highest potential

the excitement of the unknown? But I bet I wish I want to come back to at 2 a.m. To call my daddy about media. You don't see UK's and leader in english-language media and I think that the crip term leaders don't need a stronger this country as it should be because because of the regulation is basically buying your trip to 4 Main Street investment portfolios. There any uk6, the new house from whatever has no clutch hitting it. And the reason for that is because it has been bad. That's me. Band at the business-to-business that Elizabeth fried Nutrisystem the business-to-business. That's why

you get a USA. We going to encrypt say that it okay to write the stories. So I think that if that band was Unwound by the sca, then this this did leave the quality of the mainstream. Media globally would not be a most really appreciate that Marcus Last take hear. What do you say? What are you most excited about when it comes to crypto? Cori? Excited about the possibility. Today on this panel. We learned that. It seems like Central Bank inevitably will be coming out with its DVD. See, we

learned that Innovation is at the very beginning when the early Innings so to speak when it comes to the crypto Journey, we've learned that there's a lot of money going into Bitcoin funds overnight and is that thing is picking up Evan a activity is accelerating. Haven't we learned that Europe is the Hub of cripple activity today? So thank you. Jordan Airy panelist for for this wonderful conversation. And thank you audience in the organizers for putting it all together. Thank you, though.

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